Scandinavian as black for the developing amateur: 3...Qa5 or 3...Qd6?

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Avatar of dannyhume
Beautiful queen sac to get the central/kingside pawn-storm juggernaut rolling.. Nearly all of white's pieces are on their starting rank and the other one is dead. I am too materialistic to prospectively see that kind of deep strategic planning.
Avatar of dannyhume

Played in another tournament recently, with 2 more attempts to get into the Scandinavian ...

One kid took me right to the mainline and I chose 3...Qa5.  Haven't analyzed the game, but I am sure I was losing while he was aggressively pawn-storming down my kingside, but somehow I maneuvered a couple minor pieces where they could defend better, snatched a pawn with an opportune knight capture-check on a pawn, which forced its defending pawn to recapture and remove the defender of his knight (tactics!) while capturing it immediately, then somehow turned it a win after 70-some moves and lots of trading down (kids don't like endgames?!). 

My adult opponent answered 1...d5 with 2.c3!? which I don't even know if that line is covered in any books, but using general opening principles, the answer was quite obviously 2...c5!! which led to an easy forced win roughly 45 moves and 3 hours later.  In this game, he had a queen, knight, bishop in my territory on the kingside against my castled king while I had open files on the queenside with my rooks and knight having taken over while he was trying to mate me.  The engine says I could have won a tad faster with 2...Nf6 or 2...e6, but we all know engines don't know strategy or opening principles like a well-read class E player knocking on class D's door. 

All this to say... in my 2...c5!! "Scandi[navian]", my queen stayed on d8, and later in the middlegame I was tempted to bring her to a5.  Now I am starting to wonder if it is wise to view Scandi games for all of the major move 3 line for Black (3...Qa5, 3...Qd6, and 3...Qd8), even if I choose one for playing, since there may be some transpositions with certain types of positions favoring the queen on any one of those particular squares?  But even just inputting moves into ChessBase or COW without trying to study/analyze them takes too long.  Tactics alone seems more practical for study, but I do not like playing "[I] HOPE [s/he makes an obvious blunder that I recognize in the first 25 moves]" chess. 

Avatar of dopolian

@DeidreSkyenull

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I made a mistake, not at that point in the game, or else it wouldn't say "!!" on move 2, but in my last post... it was my third move that the engine says I should have moved ...e6 or ...Nf6 after 1.e4 d5 2.c3!? c5!! 3.d3!? (my opponent loves those spring-loaded latently aggressive attacking pawn moves, grabbing more of his own space), but instead I played 3...Nc6!! 

Usually I like to sacrifice my opponent's pawns, but in this case, I saw beyond the crap-tactic play of a typical 1100 player and tried to understand his/her psychology... he wanted out of the Scandi and wanted the early tempi and open lines more than I wanted the temporary pawn, so I settled for a Queen's Gambit-y looking thing (I have never played the QG, D or A, but I know you don't block the c-pawn with the horsehead-bust) that would throw him off his rocker since he was this "attacking chess" type (who loved moving pawns to the 3rd rank and minor pieces to the 2nd rank), but then he went crazy in the middlegame and brought all his pieces to my kingside after I grabbed one of his pawns on the queenside with a RRN v RB on b2.  Well, eventually, he had his knight, queen, and bishop on my third and fourth ranks in front of my castled king, itching for me to advance my g-pawn to "fork" his queen and knight, so he could respond with a knight check and bring his dark-squared bishop into the fray (at h6) to try to BBQ --get it? endgame humor-- my king.  So instead I traded my defending knight for his offending knight, he tried to open up my pawn cover with a piece sacrifice, but then I trapped his queen with a well-timed g-pawn advance ... He kept the game going until I traded down to a KQBPPPP v KPPP endgame (no books cover that particular position to my knowledge, hence you can't just rely on opening theory and need to study tactics and endgames). 

After the game, he was gracious enough to say to me "If you hadn't trapped my queen, I would have mated you easily." 

Avatar of dannyhume
DeirdreSkye wrote:

Your 2...c5!! is actully a bad move that doesn't punish the weak 2.c3 and allows white to enter Sicilian Alapin.

What's wrong with taking the pawn(2...dxe4)?He can take it back but you can take advantage of it to gain some tempi.


 

 

Wait a minute... If I took that pawn on move 2, then he would be the one doing the Scandi-ing!!

Avatar of RookSacrifice_OLD

Play 3...Qe6+! Then after 4. Be2, go pawn grabbing with 4...Qg6 trying to take on g2. This may sound stupid, but you are neglecting your development and creating unsound attacks right away. Neglecting your development is bad, but your opponent will think you have studied it and will react passively. Then do unsound attacks! As soon as you've gotten your opponent scared of your opening preparation, launch a RAR attack! You opponent will be very confused by your unorthodox play, leading him to achieve a winning position but using up all the time on his clock. Once he has 1 minute to your 1 hour, steamroll him!

Avatar of RookSacrifice_OLD

Don't forget to move VERY fast. BANG the pieces as loud as you can!

Avatar of dannyhume

I thought you BANG the clock as loud as you can... So much to learn.

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Carlsen never played anything unsound in classical chess? I am quite sure the North Sea Defence can be considered unsound. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1594446

Avatar of generickplayer

I recommend ...Qd8 Scandinavian.

Usually, the main set-up is Nf6, Bf5/Bg4 (Bg4 if you can pin a knight at f3 and trade it off, Bf5 otherwise), e6, c6, Nd7, Be7/d6/b4 (depending on the position, usually e7, but d6 is plausible if you block Bg5 which pins Nf6 to your queen, and Bb4 is plausible if White castles queenside). Black then tries gain space on the queenside with ...a5, play ...Ng6 followed by one of the knights to d5 if possible. Black can also go for breaks in the center such as with ...c5.

If you do trade off your LSB for one of the knights, you should keep all your pawns on light squares to try block the LSB's activity.

I play the ...Qd8 Scandinavian myself, and it's better than what most people think - White does win a tempo, but when I win, they either 1) play too aggressively and screw up, then I grind them to a win in the endgame or 2) they play too passively and hand over the initiative. When I lose, it's usually either 1) they play very aggressively and I can't defend or 2) I enter a better endgame but still lose somehow (since my endgame skills are awful).

Avatar of pfren
Zaphys έγραψε:

Carlsen never played anything unsound in classical chess? I am quite sure the North Sea Defence can be considered unsound. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1594446

You should tell this to Richard- the poor guy is unaware of it.

 

 

Avatar of Zaphys

Rapport is famous for playing borderline unsound defences so that merely strengthens my point.

Avatar of sammy_boi
pfren wrote:
Zaphys έγραψε:

Carlsen never played anything unsound in classical chess? I am quite sure the North Sea Defence can be considered unsound. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1594446

You should tell this to Richard- the poor guy is unaware of it.

 

 

Is this notation correct?

He misses 43...Qg2 mate?

Avatar of Zaphys

lol nice spot

Avatar of Optimissed
dannyhume wrote:
For the developing low-level club player with limited study time, and who is starting to more consistently play more games at the club and in rated tournaments, which Scandinavian "main lines" as Black do you recommend and why: 3...Qa5 or 3...Qd6?>>

Changing the subject to white's attempts to get black out of book, we've seen 2.c3 and probably agree that's horrible, but what about 2. Na3 with the intention of Bc4? Is that covered anywhere? It just occured to me.

 

Avatar of Paul1e4

In the Caruana-Carlsen game, what was the purpose of Ne2 on move 8?

Avatar of MidnasLament

I like 3...Qa5 myself, but there are several ways white can play to crush you in the opening so you will need to study (or keep a list of the games you play where you get crushed so it doesn't happen again!)

 

For example, here are some of the ideas I look for (after losing to them...lol)

 

1.) early d5 breaks, make sure you are castled before they get this in otherwise... smoosh

2.)  Ideas with Ne5 followed by g4! hitting your bishop on f5

3.)  Ideas with Nd4 coming over to trap your queen (stockfish did this to me)

4.)  Sacrifices on e6, especially rook sacs!

5.)  Ideas with Bxh6

**the sacrifices are usually possible if white delays the development of their kingside knight or queenside bishop... soooo if they do that you have to watch closely.. they can also get d5 in early in those lines.  

 

If these scare you they should.  I'm a 1500 player and I love playing the Scandi, but I do have to watch for these ideas continuously and maybe there are scary lines I haven't seen yet too.  So it can be bad if white knows what they are doing, but usually white doesn't and you can get a solid middle game where you trade down into a nice end game where you can gang up on the d4 pawn. Happy Scandi to you!

 

-Stacia