Sicilian Defense: Closed Variation

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pfren
Taulmaril wrote:

On the nh3 ideas, is there any practical difference between nh3 and nge2? Both are essentially supporting f4 and later the knight will go there.

Usually Nge2 is not followed by f4, when the knight is simply misplaced on e2.

The move anticipates ...Nd4 by Black, when the absence of a knight from f3 means that no white piece will be misplaced after exchanges. Ideally white would like to follow Nge2 with h2-h4, Bh6, maybe 0-0-0, and such stuff.

The systems with Nge2 are not very ambitious, but not easy at all to break, either. In the following game I was reluctant to proceed to simplifications, played a couple of stupid moves (mainly misevaluated the positionally concistent move 16...h4), and ended up much worse as Black- it's a good thing the opponent was playing for a draw. Actually white has some advantage in the final position, too, despite being a pawn down.



kindaspongey
jengaias wrote:

The "new" very popular line is the one with 2.Nc3 3.Bb5.

My guess is that soon we will see it in top level.The games from this line are very interesting and things can go bad really fast for either side.

... Highly entrtaining games proving , I think , that there is a lot of interesting game/ideas/plans there

I would guess that IM Greg Shahade and GM Dorian Rogozenko thought of themselves as commenting on the sort of game that would come from the 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 d6 position.

lolurspammed wrote:

Its not like white can force an advantage against the sicilian in the main lines anyways, so why not? White has no opening advantage against good play.

Not that one should necessarily care, but might there be a difference between 2 Nf3 and 2 Nc3 in terms of the best chance of a Black mistake?

Some games with the move of Nigel Short after 1 e4 c5:

2015 against Junta Ikeda: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nc3

2015 against Sergei Movsesian: 2. Nf3

2016 against Nino Maisuradze: 2. Nf3

2016 against Aleksei Kulashko: 2. Nf3

Of course, there is nothing to force one to do the work associated with preparing to play 2 Nf3.

Taulmaril wrote:

... According to shahade there's several options for black to equalize that take a whole 5 minutes to prepare, so why would any player be unprepared to meet the closed sicilian? Take the 5 minutes to prepare your options and you'll be prepared for life according to shahade. And yet a game has been posted of shahade being spanked by this opening he clearly feels is innocuous.

First of all, IM Greg Shahade referred to "probably 15 minutes" of preparation before a game in order to "get a fully playable position without much difficulty." He did not say that one could dependably remember the preparation for life. Also, the Shahade losses were about 9 years BEFORE his 2012 comments. Is there any reason to doubt that his 2012 perception was the result of investigation after the 2003 experience? Third, does "fully playable" mean guaranteed half or full point? Fourth, how much respect for 1 e4 a6 should there be as a result of the famous 1980 Karpov-Miles game? Finally, is the opinion of GM Dorian Rogozenko also to be dismissed?

Taulmaril

Ah I see. The 1 opponent who busted up my closed sicilian pointed out that after Nge2 f4 was a mistake because the knight wants to go to f4 in that particular variation. But I suppose the e2 knight always wants to go to f4? I read somewhere about playing f4 with Nge2 with ideas of f5. Later you may also play g4 and tranfer the e2 knight to g3. But that may be a very specific circumstance.I've pretty much exclusively played the Nge2 version so far but as I said my experience with it is limited. Another idea my opponent gave was if I'm going to play an early f4 my knight should go to f3 afterwards.

Taulmaril

This is my only loss with the closed Sicilian in tournament play. I was pretty overmatched in terms of strength but my misunderstanding of the ideas didn't help. I hadn't played against this setup from black before this game. I had only seen the mutual kingside fianchetto from black in my previous tournament games with it. But I learned a fair amount from this game about what to do. I still have my work cut out for me but now I know that if black is going to play d5 I need to be prepared to exchange and respond with d4,isolating blacks pawn or leaving him with a weak pawn. Any additional notes on this game from more experienced players is appreciated.

lolurspammed

Nigel Short, the one who has played the closed consistently in his life?

congrandolor

Maybe 2Nc3 is not the best move, but if you play 2Nf3,  be ready to face the Sveshnikov´s 25 theoretical moves, no fun at all!

The fact it is not played at the highest level doesn´t prove anything, the berlin was considered bad before Kramnik, as the Catalan was, while the French and the Dutch had their heydays, later dissapearing of elite games with no clear reasons.

pfren
ddmeltzer8 wrote:

Thanks for sharing this game.

How do u think white should continue in order to try for a win?

It looks very drawish in my opinion.

I would continue if I had white, that's for sure (omitting white's last move, which makes no sense). Nothing at risk for him, and Black has to take care of a few things.

White spoiled a large advantage earlier- namely after the stupid move 17...0-0? which does not give Black any advantages, and fails to meet the demands of the position both positionally, and tactically.

kindaspongey
Morphysrevenges wrote:

Excuse me? Not played at the highest levels?

Maybe not as a "main weapon".

According to my database the following players essayed the closed sicilian within the last year or two-

Magnus Carlsen, Alex Grischuk, Peter Svidler, Alexander Morozevich, Nigel Short, michael adams, vesilin topalov, judith polgar, vladmir kramnik, vasilly ivanchuk and Yifan Hou. That is some pretty impressive company indeed. 

Some games with the move of Nigel Short after 1 e4 c5:

2015 against Junta Ikeda: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nc3

2015 against Sergei Movsesian: 2. Nf3

2016 against Nino Maisuradze: 2. Nf3

2016 against Aleksei Kulashko: 2. Nf3

kindaspongey

As you probably recall, about four years ago, somebody-or-other indicated that "someone like Short, or Adams" will "trot" out the Closed Sicilian "for a single game here and there" and that the Closed Sicilian is "ok" "as a surprise from time to time". For an idea about the overall popularity of 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3, it might perhaps be of interest to compare it with 1 e4 c5 2 c3.

poucin

There are not enough games in 2015 to make such statistics.

In 2013, 14 games with Short as white against sicilian.

Average black rating is about 2600...

2.Nc3 : 7 games

2.Nf3 : 5 games

2.b3 : 2 games

So please Ylblai2, could u stop misinforming?

Taulmaril

I'll be posting a few more of my tournament games in the closed sicilian against more evenly matched opposition when I can. Having some weird issue with chess.coms diagram posting at the moment.

kindaspongey
ylblai2 wrote:

Some games with the move of Nigel Short after 1 e4 c5:

2015 against Junta Ikeda: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nf3

2015 against Garry Kasparov: 2. Nc3

2015 against Sergei Movsesian: 2. Nf3

2016 against Nino Maisuradze: 2. Nf3

2016 against Aleksei Kulashko: 2. Nf3

IM poucin wrote:

There are not enough games in 2015 to make such statistics. ...

Some more games with the move of Nigel Short after 1 e4 c5:

2014 against Leo Zhu: 2. Nf3

2014 against Aaron Ziwen Wang: 2. Nf3

2014 against William Xiang Wei Li: 2. Nf3

2014 against Sebastian Maze: 2 d3 (Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 Nc3)

2014 against Sergei Movsesian: 2 Nf3

2014 against Alon Greenfeld: 2 Nc3

2016 against Ernest Kharous: 2 Nc3

2016 against Jinshi Bai: 2 Nf3

2016 against Junta Ikeda: 2 Nf3

ylblai2 wrote (about 3 days ago):

... are any second thoughts appropriate about, "Spassky championned it with great results (when he was world champion...)"?

X_PLAYER_J_X

I love the Closed Sicilian;however, I can't seem to find a response to the Botvinnik Defense

It doesn't seem very clear on how white should continue.

It seems like databases and strong players have played about a handful of moves in this position as well.

Which really does make things tough.

 



Taulmaril

Here's a game I played against a more evenly matched opponent. Feedback appreciated.

Taulmaril

xplayer I'd continue Be3 Qd2 Nge2 and 0-0 in some order. Pretty standard.

lolurspammed

I play 2..a6 even though I really like the positions out of 2..Nc6 better. Why? To avoid chameleon.

X_PLAYER_J_X
lolurspammed wrote:

I play 2..a6 even though I really like the positions out of 2..Nc6 better. Why? To avoid chameleon.

I love the Chameleon as well.

Taulmaril

I'm not familiar with that variation. Is it only a variation stemming from 2. Nc6? If I were to play the sicilian it'd probably be a najdorf or maybe a Taimanov and as white I play the closed so it wouldn't come up if that's the case.

X_PLAYER_J_X
Taulmaril wrote:

I'm not familiar with that variation. Is it only a variation stemming from 2. Nc6? If I were to play the sicilian it'd probably be a najdorf or maybe a Taimanov and as white I play the closed so it wouldn't come up if that's the case.

There are 2 different ways to play the Chameleon Variation.

The below way is the normal way.

The other way is called the Closed Sicilian, Chameleon Variation.

I think the below continuation is the one lolurspamm is trying to avoid.



pfren

The terminology "Chameleon Variation" belongs to Andy Soltis, who has written a book on the Nc3/Nge2 concept twenty something years ago. It's interesting, but definitely not one of his best works (like for example the excellent book on the largely forgotten Lowenthal variation).

He called it like that because white can decide , according to Black's replies, to go for an open, or closed Sicilian. I have tried it only once against serious opposition (a Grandmaster) and failed- mainly because I wasn't familiar of some idiosyncratic things of the system... but also because Stratos (who celebrates his fiftieth birthday today) played really well!