tarrasch defense transpositions

If I play the Tarrasch Defense as black can white force a transposition to the Semi-Tarrasch?

No. Black would have to play ...Nxd5 to get to those positions and White can't force a capture like that.

Ah...I think there may be some confusion,because in the past the Semi-Tarrasch was used to describe two types of position. The Nxd5 variation and also the pawn position with pawns of both sides on queen4,bishop4 and king3...

Oh I didn't know that. I've also heard some people call the second position a symmetrical Tarrasch or double Tarrasch but I don't know if that position ever got a real name.

It's a confusing subject. Just checked in my chess library. I have Andrew Martin's monograph "Trends In The Tarrasch and Semi Tarrasch." He seems to describe as "Tarrasch" where white plays cd early on and black recaptures with the e pawn. presumably "full" Tarrasch, because of the players love of isolated pawns...

Martin does refer to the c4,d4,e3 /c5,d5,e6 structure as "symmetrical" Semi-Tarrasch and subdivides the "Nxd5 Semi Tarrasch" into "Keres-Parma" - white pawn on e3, and "White Plays e4"

Thanks guys. Maybe a more specific follow-up question: I'm thinking of playing the Tarrasch to get a more open position against 1 d4. But I'm not sure how to proceed if he avoids the mainline Tarrasch of 4. cxd5 and plays instead 4. Nc3 or 4. e3

So we are talking symmetrical Semi Tarrasch. Well that's a bit of a cold bath to someone hoping to mix things up. A bit like the exchange Franch or C3 Sicilian. You just have to dig in and play chess in an even position. When I played the Tarrasch as black for a short while, the symmetrical was the one I hated facing - not that I faced it much - but I did play it from the white side !

Here's some inspiration for black. The Rubinstein "Immortal":

http://www.chess.com/blog/djano/garry-kasparov-described-this-game-as-quotrubinsteins-truly-immortal-gamequot

Thanks Ziggy. I'm not necessarily looking to "mix things up" so much as just open the position.

Some white players refuse to capture either of the c or d pawns and I'm not sure if there is a good way to open up the position against them.

With the symmetrical - and I think there are QGA transpositions - both side can play a3/a6 and contemplate b4/b5 - after playing dc - with their queen's bishop developed to b2/b7.

There is also a possible transposition to the Panov attack where white plays as "black" if black decide to play cd and white possesses the isolated or potentially isolated QP.

thanks

OK all these move orders are confusing me lol so I'lm just going to start with the main line up to move 4:

 4.e3 e6 is a symmetrical position and basically either side can go for an isolated pawn. The opening is usually about trying to get the best of either side of an isolated pawn game.

After 4.Nf3 Black just plays 4...Nc6 and White has to make a decision on how to play. 4...Nf6 is not great because 5.cd ed 6.Bg5 forces Black to defend the d5 pawn and miss out on more active ways to play.

The secret I've found is to create a few blank lines below the quoted section before attempting to edit the quoted section. A similar situation and solution occurs when you need to add text below an inserted game: if you don't add the blank lines *before* inserting the game then all text after the game becomes centered, not aligned.

Thanks Sqod ;-)

1.d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nf3 c5 4e3 a6 is an useful way to break symmetry. 4...nc6 5pxp pxp 6bb5 is ok for black as well. Might be handy to know to avoid move order tricks. If play semi-tarrasch would likely play 5...nxp anyway.