The French vs KIA is my current problem

Hello everyone

I play the French Defense and my current issue is playing against the KIA. I have a feeling that the normal way of playing is just what white wants:

I never considered ...f6 in this position and it's actually been done after 10.Nf1 f6. Wow maybe this is a more practical way of dealing with this stuff. Check it out:

Here's my favorite system vs the KIA:

This is a very sensible system which takes advantage of the fact that white didn't play d4, making the bishop on g7 a very strong piece. This position will occur in >60% of the games you play as black vs the KIA, since most players will play Re1 in that position and play the previous moves like that as well. And here we have a divergence, as white has three main moves, not including exd5, which is nothing:

9. e5 is the main idea (really of the entire opening) as white intends to take space in the center and prepare for a possible transfer of all his pieces over to the kingside to perform a major attack. And here after 9...Qc7 10. Qe2 black has the very interesting move 10...g5!? with the idea to push g4 and kick the knight that defends the pawn. Also important to note that 11. Nxg5 Qxe5 12. Qxe5 Bxe5 13. Nb3 Bg7 is a very strong queenless middlegame for black. 14. Nxc5? Nd4! and black is in the driver's seat, around +1 for black after just under 15 moves. To avoid that white can go 11. h3 but then after 11...Ng6 the high amount of pressure on e5 provokes white to take on g5 anyway, and after 12. Nxg5 Qxe5 black is probably slightly better. Also note that the queen trade is forced, meaning that black has nothing to fear on the kingside.

9. c3 is a normal move you may face, cutting off the bishop on g7. This may also happen before Re1. If this occurs then you can just play 9...Qc7, since white didn't play e5, and continue development. After 10. Qe2 you can even go 10...b6, which not only possibly prepares a bishop move but also defends the c-pawn which can come under attack in some lines. 11. e5 g5!? is again possible, and if you prefer a simple life, then 11...f6 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nf1 Bg7 (stopping possible Bh6) is good, where black can set up the break e6-e5 after which he can never be worse. Also note that 14. Bf4? is met now by 14...Rxf4! and black has tons of compensation for this exchange. 14. Bg5 h6 asks the bishop if it really wants to exchange itself for the inactive knight on e7. Black is equal.

9. h4 is the most aggressive move, but white's attack is easily stymied. 9...h6! intending to meet h5 with g5 (where black will be better since white will have no further means of opening the kingside) is the recipe. 10. e5 f6 11. exf6 and you can take back either way. I prefer 11...Rxf6 because of the pressure on f3, which is increased because we can play Bg4 in many lines and the bishop cannot be kicked due to white having played already the move h4. 12. Nb3 e5! is therefore possible, for various tactical reasons that I won't go into but you can check with your own engine (13. Nxc5 Bg4!, 13. Nxe5 Nxe5 14. Rxe5 Rxf2!, etc).

If white plays other moves like 9. Qe2 you can just play in the same way. 9...b6 10. e5 f6 is good enough.

Remember the ideas of playing f6 (or even g5-g4!) when white has put the pawn on e5, remember always to undermine that pawn, remember that b6 is a useful move to defend c5, and remember that if you succeed in undermining the white center then you may often have the chance to push e5 yourself, after which you are never worse and often much better. Finally, don't forget to meet h4 with h6 and h5 with g5. 

Here's all that on a board:

9. e5

9. c3

9. h4!?

This variation is not challenging for black. If you have any questions feel free to ask!

I play both the KIA and the French.

Off the top of my head, GM Neil McDonald suggests in his book on the KIA that the following line is playable with a backward pawn in e6 but interesting pieces activity (and it puts the average KIA player offbook without the usual patterns to rely on):

 @penandpaper and dpnorman thank you so much for your input! dpnorman thanks for taking the time to post all of that. I will be following your recommendation in the future. That is very detailed and extremely helpful!

I tried dpnorman's suggestion OTB. I'm a wood pusher, I give you that, but as an average French player, the position is less funky to play in some lines after exd5 followed by c4. Not that Black is lost but it just becomes (in my case) unpleasant to play and makes me tired/bored.

The advantage of GM McDonald's suggestion (I underline that ...Qf7 is a personal suggestion, GM McDonald stops after ...f6 and just says it's playable) is that you can be 99% sure that White will not deviate from his usual development while Black seems to offer (until ...Ng4, but it's too late then) the usual French meal with closed centre topping for hungry KIA attacker.

There is no main line where white plays exd5 and c4, although I know from experience that a lot of club-level players who don't know theory play this way.

It's not a very good plan objectively. For example, if white plays 8. exd5 in place of Re1 in my line, after 8...exd5 9. c4 you suould not play d4, which gives up the e4 square and the diagonal but simply castle. 9...0-0 10. Nb3 b6 11. cxd5 Nxd5 12. d4 Ba6 is a sample line, where black should be slightly better.

I don't understand a player not wanting to play this line because of exd5 and c4. You should be happy to play against that

Well, it is probably a matter of taste but each time it has definitely killed my mood . But you are right, though I do not remember it well, I probably made the mistake to play d4 repeatedly at that time which is awful when I look at the position now.

PS: 8.exd5 is not that much an offbeat move. 1.Re1 remains the main line but 8.exd5 is 3rd in fashion played by several grandmasters (including Dvoretsky, who besides a renowned endgame expert is also a well-known KIA player), followed by d4 which I play myself.

FYI and for the beauty of the game, I give you a game that reminds Black should be careful not to forget to castle in time in this kind of variation :

It's not really intuitive. You don't play it unless you know what you're doing and are ok with the complications. A lot of this stuff is pure calculation.

It seems to me that it is based on simple plans: 1) putting pressure on e5 and then, without mentioning the development of the Queen along the f-file with tactics that are not THAT complicated (the evidence being that I, patzer, am able to remember it easily )  2) pushing e5 to get rid of our backward pawn after what the position is far from being pure chaos.

Well exd5 cannot be a very serious move, but in any case it's not exd5 that I am particularly criticizing; rather the plan of doing that followed by c4 is something I don't know if any strong players have played. It's nothing to worry about, although club players like to do this stuff I've noticed. I think if black doesn't play d4, he's probably slightly better already. Bishop can come to f5 or a6 to tickle d3 and it's not clear how to finish development for white.

Also, the game you show involves black playing b6 before castling, which is a little different from the line I prefer. It often transposes but I think it makes sense to play 0-0 first since b6 is less necessary. In any case 8...b6 is a main line as well, also perfectly fine for black. Of course when white plays exd5 anywhere in these lines, for example 8. exd5 exd5 9. Nb3 b6 10. c3 0-0 11. Bf4 or something like that, it's just an equal position where the player who plays better moves will come out on top. I think that's true of the whole KIA- not a good enough variation to give white any edge, but that doesn't mean you can't lose. Every chess player wins and loses from equal positions, pretty often. It helps to know ideas though. For example whenever the knight goes to b3, like in the line I mentioned, a5-a4 and maybe Ba6 becomes an idea.

I also don't know if you know this, but the player playing black in that game has made a lot of YouTube videos for Melbourne Chess Club. When I was about 1400 I watched all of them. He actually made one advocating the KIA for white, although he admits with most of his opening recommendations that he's not trying for theoretical advantages with white. Doesn't cover this system for black also in that video, if I remember correctly. But it's not a bad channel for mid-level class players, which I was when I found it.

@dpnorman, I agree on c4. The fact is it was a some years ago and though I do not remember the exact variation, it is possible I kept playing the awful d4 move at that time in several rapid games against the same club mates and that it gave me a bad impression before I changed (and have kept playing since then) for a variation I worked on more seriously.

I did not give the game at the end of my message to criticise the setup you propose, the similarity of the line made me think about it and I shared it for "the pleasure of the eyes" as we say in France.

PS: @CNoahSay Not 100% sure but I remember that GM Williams suggests dpnorman's setup in another DVD, "Killer French" (which is probably why I gave it a try). I remember a game Ljubojevic-Kasparov given as example.

@IMbacon: yes, ...Ng4 followed by ...f6 is not the main line, I am not arguing on that. I simply suggest a line, I explain what are the pros and cons, and that a GM writing on the KIA deemed it playable.

And as the OP underlined it, playing the mainline with the b5-a5-b4-a4-a3 roll is exactly what White is praying for. Meanwhile, White is carrying out a direct attack with pieces on White's castle which may be  rather unpleasant (#understatement) to face as Black.

Reluctance to play the mainline, making White happy, seems to be the reason why this thread exists in the first place.

As a KIA player, I love meeting d4 that makes the e4-square an highway for Whites' pieces (most KIA players having in mind the well-known Fischer-Myagmasuren game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044267 where the e4-square was used to carry out the checkmate attack byFischer's Knight, Rook, and even light-squared Bishop in the ending blow if Black had not surrendered). I could also possibly use the c4 square for a Knight according to Black's concrete play (followed for instance by a4 not to be pushed away).

...Qc7, ...Re8, with or without ...h6 is Christmas for any trained KIA player. All the usual tactical patterns show up:

1 - possible sacrifice on d5 (Ne3xd5) followed by e6: Black's Queen is attacked by the Bishop on f4 as well as the d7-Knight. So White is at least assured to get back the invested piece.

2 - Having point 1 in mind, the previous ...Re8 also often gives better tactical opportunities with exf7+ instead of exd7. Below a game of mine I have recently played here with most moves of the tactical blow played in less than 2 seconds to show how comfortable an average KIA player can be in this kind of position).

3 - Even without any sacrifice on d5, the ...h6 move is a glowing target for sacrifice by itself after simple moves such as Ng4 and Qd2.

Not that any of this is losing for Black if it's played very carefully, but White is clearly on known ground and has all the fun playing it (fun not likely to be shared by Black) which may make the difference between 1-0 and 0-1.

I am just discovering this type of opening

Set-up is right, idea is wrong!  You do not want to play f6.  Your attack is on the Queenside.  Don't accelerate White's attack.  Below is how you want to play this:

A few notes:

1) 3...Nf6 is more accurate than 3...c5.  White must play 4.g3 first.  After 4.Ngf3, White has problems after 4...Bc5!

2) White could also move the Knight to g4 before the Bishop to f4.  Or h4 before Nf1.  Many moves are interchangeable.  You might also occasionally see an early c3 or Qe2.

3) In the main line, shown in the diagram, White must take the time out to play 14.a3.  Otherwise, after 14...a3 by Black, even if White locks the position with b3, White constantly has to watch out for piece sacrifices on b3 or a2, especially if he puts all his eggs in one basket, which is typical of the KIA, and brings all of his pieces to the Kingside.

4) This is the one case in the French where f6 is bad.  It accelerates White's attack, opens up the e-file and makes e6 an easy target.  While both may have castled Kingside, this is more of a race on the two wings than it is a fight for the center or any goals to break up the center.  All you are doing then is accelerating White's attack.

5) There is an alternative instead of 13...a4 with 13...Nd4.  White is almost forced to take on d4, leading to doubled d-pawns but an open path to the weakness on c2 as compensation.  If he ignores the Knight, then 14...Nf5 stops White's attack in its tracks!

Also, don't listen to the clown in posts 19 and 20.  HE IS THE MORON.  I have played both sides of the KIA vs French (though as White, it's typically by transposition as I only play the KIA via 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 and now if 3...d5 4.Nbd2 Nf6 5.g3 Nc6 6.Bg2 Be7 7.O-O O-O, you have a direct transposition.

What that clown is referring to is the KIA vs Sicilian.  THERE you DO NOT want to castle too early.  After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nbd2 g6 5.g3 Bg7 6.Bg2 Nge7 7.O-O d6 8.Re1, here, with the Fianchetto, pawn on d6 instead of d5, Knight on e7 instead of f6, Black should not castle too quickly via 8...O-O? and instead play 8...b6!.

The KIA vs Sicilian though is very different than the KIA vs French, and you must be able to identify the transpositions if you play this as White.  I don't do the KIA vs French unless it's via the transposition from the Sicilian because I enjoy the White side of the French Advance too much to play this line against the French Proper!