sigh
why did i ask for this
"same side vs opposite side castling reserved by black" is the most STUPID main argument ever
usually... white chooses 0-0-0 when black 0-0s
white 0-0ing then black 0-0-0ing exists, but is less common
but to use this logic for the bad openings is dumb
what, oh no i cant choose my castling oh WHAT SHALL I DO???
It's more of a tie breaker than a main argument.
I don't think that d6 fails against 2. g3.
Black can just play it like a modern defense with g6-bg7 after 2. g3, and if white decides to play e4 black can respond with nc6.
If white doesn't play e4 and depending on how black plays, it can transpose into a variation of the KID.
White could just play d5 next and kick the knight.
op thinks barnes is decent coz...
e4 f6 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5 e5
transposing to "a variation of the ruy"
first off i have no idea how even THIS is decent, but moreover
why did white not play 2 d4
or 3 d4
and whats the idea of Bb5?
and Nf3 is weird to play in the second move when the opp. has weakened e8-h5
If white does d4 black can go into the fried fox Defense, which looks terrible, but is actually playable. White is still better, but black should survive.
e4 f6 d4 Kf7 is good
e4 f6 Nf3 Kf7 isnt
d4 f6 Nf3 Kf7 also isnt
pardon me?
sigh
why did i ask for this
"same side vs opposite side castling reserved by black" is the most STUPID main argument ever
usually... white chooses 0-0-0 when black 0-0s
white 0-0ing then black 0-0-0ing exists, but is less common
but to use this logic for the bad openings is dumb
what, oh no i cant choose my castling oh WHAT SHALL I DO???
It's more of a tie breaker than a main argument.
why is this even a tiebreaker
also you have told "as black one of the main things you have is choosing the castling"
Some points because I personally think this is an incredibly bad list
1. The Barnes Defense is not decent. It is really bad.
2. h5 is probably worse than a5 because you also weaken your kingside in the process of losing a tempo
3. There is no reason b5 should be that low, especially since you put a6 higher? a6 is actually a fairly okay move against e4, but the whole point of a6 is to setup b5. Against d4, you don’t need to do that, so it just wastes a tempo. Also b4 is actually rather decent for black, since like the Polis Opening for white, it allows you to fianchetto the bishop and immediately grab some queenside space at the same time. Should at least be top 10
4. a6 is too high. Okay against e4 but pointless against d4
5. h6 is too high. In no world is the tempo wasting and minor kingside weakening move better than both the Mikenas and Polish.
6. The Modern is not the second best defense to d4. Not even close. Definitely top 10, but probably to the lower end of that.
7. Englund is hot garbage. If white just doesn’t fall for one very simple trap your position is pretty bad. Also white can just transpose to the Center Game if they want anyway, so that 5 minutes you spent learning the Englund Gambit trap is going to be wasted if your higher than like 1000.
8. b6 is massively overrated. Worse than the Modern for sure, and I’ve already determined that the Modern is on the back end of the top 10.
9. Dutch is too high
10. d5 is too low
11. Horwitz is too low
12. Benoni is too high
13. Were you high when you made this?
H5 at least weakens your opponents kingside too, and adds pressure so that it forces a same-sided castling game. a6 and h6 at least don't really hurt black, and stop a minor piece from coming to close for comfort. As I established earlier I'm not referring to Nc6 Englund. I need to know why you think the other points you made to respond to them.
b5 was explained
and d6 englund is just a pawn down for what?
bishop development??
blacks up a tempo for a pawn
hardly ideal
e4 f6 d4 Kf7 is good
e4 f6 Nf3 Kf7 isnt
d4 f6 Nf3 Kf7 also isnt
pardon me?
In those 2 there's nothing black is being defended from so it's a waste of moves. Also I never said Fried Fox was that good, just playable or decent. There's a reason I put Barnes at 11 you know.
b5 was explained
and d6 englund is just a pawn down for what?
bishop development??
blacks up a tempo for a pawn
hardly ideal
2 tempi for a pawn.
I don't think that d6 fails against 2. g3.
Black can just play it like a modern defense with g6-bg7 after 2. g3, and if white decides to play e4 black can respond with nc6.
If white doesn't play e4 and depending on how black plays, it can transpose into a variation of the KID.
White could just play d5 next and kick the knight.
It can and it's a plausible move, but that's the point of black's play: Make white look like it has a lot of space and then try to undermine the center.
also you have told "as black one of the main things you have is choosing the castling"
It is one of the minor advantages black has, just like white starts off with the initiative. And it's a tie-breaker because there's a different style of play in each type of castling, so who ever decided which one will get their preference.
huh?
black has 5 moves to connect rooks
white has 7
ok fairish point
but are those tempi... useful?
can black do anything with them?
and its a CENTER pawn which was sacced
and your "nothing black is being defended from" point needs explaining
what does the Nf3 do to make Kf7 bad
also you have told "as black one of the main things you have is choosing the castling"
It is one of the minor advantages black has, just like white starts off with the initiative. And it's a tie-breaker because there's a different style of play in each type of castling, so who ever decided which one will get their preference.
h-what?
there are many many lines where white gets to choose same or opposite side
black has comparatively less lines like that, i think?
Yeah, it's fine for black. I did put d6 relatively high, but it still doesn't compete with the top tier move in my opinion.
huh?
black has 5 moves to connect rooks
white has 7
ok fairish point
but are those tempi... useful?
can black do anything with them?
and its a CENTER pawn which was sacced
and your "nothing black is being defended from" point needs explaining
what does the Nf3 do to make Kf7 bad
Black has a potential sack on the kingside it threatens if white castles there, and it can use it speedy development to put white on defense.
When white does Nf3 the whole point of kf7 is gone. What's the point of it when white doesn't have any immediate threats to the king?
EX Tier:
1. Nf6: The best, as it’s the most solid and flexible as well as the most solid.
2. d5: The second best, slightly less flexible but no less solid.
3. e6: If you aren’t worried about the French this might go above d5.
A Tier:
4. d6: Sets up a trap on move one or transposes to an OID/KID setup.
5. g6: Both more and less flexible than d6, minus the trap and a tiny bit of solidity.
6. c6: If you aren’t worried about the Caro-Kann this is fine.
B Tier:
7. f5: The Dutch isn’t considered fully sound, but it’s perfectly playable at all levels.
8. b5: This is playable and interesting for Black but White is most certainly better.
C Tier:
9. c5: The Old Benoni is not good at all. There is literally no point in this move order.
10. b6: The English is… fine, but White can just play 2. e4 and be much better.
11. e5: Not a good move, but playable if Black wants to gambit a pawn for quick development.
12. a6: This move accomplishes nothing but also doesn’t actively harm Black’s position.
13. h6: Similar to a6.
14. Nc6: A bad move, you have to hope White doesn’t know what to do against this because otherwise White is better.
F Tier:
15-20: All various shades of terrible.
h-what?
there are many many lines where white gets to choose same or opposite side
black has comparatively less lines like that, i think?
Since white goes first it's gonna usually reveal it's cards first, letting black decide where to castle next.
huh?
black has 5 moves to connect rooks
white has 7
ok fairish point
but are those tempi... useful?
can black do anything with them?
and its a CENTER pawn which was sacced
and your "nothing black is being defended from" point needs explaining
what does the Nf3 do to make Kf7 bad
Black has a potential sack on the kingside it threatens if white castles there, and it can use it speedy development to put white on defense.
When white does Nf3 the whole point of kf7 is gone. What's the point of it when white doesn't have any immediate threats to the king?
so..
if white can attack the king on e8, bring it to f7
but if white cant attack the king on e8, dont
huh?
also e4 f6 d4 Kf7 isnt good....
certainly not almost ahead of the sicilian
and still, why Bb5?
and still, is the nuremberg even decent?
My rankings
1: Indian Defense (Nf6)
I agree that this is the best response. One if black’s most solid and flexible responses while also being not particularly committing to anything
2: Symmetrical Queen’s Pawn (d5)
A logical follow-up that puts a pawn in the center, keeping with opening principles, and is fairly flexible.
3: Horwitz Defense (e6)
A nice transpositional move that will almost always transposition into the French, although c4 allows transposition to the East Indian Defense.
4: d6
Capable of transposing into numerous variations of the Pirc and Indian Defense, as well as the English Rat. Another nice transpositional move, though leading to some more dangerous openings.
5: c6
Not much to say here. Solid, but blocks the knight. Likely to transposition into the Caro. It’s alright.
6: Dutch Defense (f5)
Although it weakens the kingside a decent bit, it’s perfectly playable for black. Only really good though if you like sharp positions, and white can get a decent position without too much trouble. A good opening, but black has to tread a bit more carefully than others.
7: Modern Defense (g6)
The Modern Defense is mostly fine. It’s fairly light on theory, though it can transpose into a Pirc with which black really has to know what they’re doing, as well as a KID. The Modern despite seeming passive is actually quite aggressive and confrontational, and so it’s good for players who enjoy sharp games.
8: Polish Defense (b5)
The problem with this move is that it’s extremely committal. On move one, black has already told white that they’re going to fianchetto their bishop and storm the queenside with a pawn avalanche. It’s very inflexible, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t playable. It actually is playable, and very interesting. Although it may be annoying to try and defend the pawn early in the game, black can also be equally annoying to white by pushing the pawn to b4 and following it up with a5 or c5, cramping white’s queenside and preventing white from developing their queen’s knight to a natural square. Not the best, but certainly worth a try.
9: Old Benoni Defense (c5)
Very aggressive and also inflexible. There are better ways to play the Benoni than to start with c5, especially since white can very easily form a pawn wedge on your queenside. It’s not bad though, and definitely playable albeit hyperaggressive.
10: English Defense (b6)
Transposes into the Owen’s Defense after e4. Aims to fianchetto the light-squared bishop. Very passive though. Usually leads to a Hippopotamus setup from what I’ve seen. Mostly meh.
11: Mikenas Defense (Nc3)
A mirrored Alekhine. Not good but not bad. Nothing much to say here.
12. St. George Defense (a6)
Fine against e4, but against d4, just play b5 first dude.
13. Englund Gambit (e5)
Gives white a free center pawn and is entirely reliant on an easy to avoid trap. The only good thing is it doesn’t cause a major structural weakness, which isn’t saying much.
14. h6
Like the St George, but you can’t play g5 because it’s just outright bad. Tempo wasting move.
15. a5
Gives black some interesting queenside attacking possibilities, but playing it on move one is a waste when it can be played with an even greater effect later. Tempo wasting move.
16. h5
Like a5, but replace queenside with kingside, and tack on a minor kingside weakness. Slightly worse tempo wasting move.
17. Australian Defense (Na6)
Develops a knight to an inferior square. A tempo wasting move that also prevents you from being able to effectively use your queenside knight in the beginning.
18. Nh6
Like Na6, but arguably worse since the kingside knight is generally more important in d4 openings.
19. f6
A tempo wasting move that weakens the kingside for no reason while also preventing natural development of the kingside knight. Just bad.
20. Borg Defense (g5)
Literally a free pawn and practically a free win from how much you manage to weaken the kingside with this move. If white plays e4 instead of Bxg5, you might as well just play f6 and end your suffering immediately. There is no reason anyone should be playing the Borg Defense. It isn’t even really a defense per se. It should be renamed to the Borg Surrender or something like that.
My rankings
1: Indian Defense (Nf6)
I agree that this is the best response. One if black’s most solid and flexible responses while also being not particularly committing to anything
2: Symmetrical Queen’s Pawn (d5)
A logical follow-up that puts a pawn in the center, keeping with opening principles, and is fairly flexible.
3: Horwitz Defense (e6)
A nice transpositional move that will almost always transposition into the French, although c4 allows transposition to the East Indian Defense.
4: d6
Capable of transposing into numerous variations of the Pirc and Indian Defense, as well as the English Rat. Another nice transpositional move, though leading to some more dangerous openings.
5: c6
Not much to say here. Solid, but blocks the knight. Likely to transposition into the Caro. It’s alright.
6: Dutch Defense (f5)
Although it weakens the kingside a decent bit, it’s perfectly playable for black. Only really good though if you like sharp positions, and white can get a decent position without too much trouble. A good opening, but black has to tread a bit more carefully than others.
7: Modern Defense (g6)
The Modern Defense is mostly fine. It’s fairly light on theory, though it can transpose into a Pirc with which black really has to know what they’re doing, as well as a KID. The Modern despite seeming passive is actually quite aggressive and confrontational, and so it’s good for players who enjoy sharp games.
8: Polish Defense (b5)
The problem with this move is that it’s extremely committal. On move one, black has already told white that they’re going to fianchetto their bishop and storm the queenside with a pawn avalanche. It’s very inflexible, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t playable. It actually is playable, and very interesting. Although it may be annoying to try and defend the pawn early in the game, black can also be equally annoying to white by pushing the pawn to b4 and following it up with a5 or c5, cramping white’s queenside and preventing white from developing their queen’s knight to a natural square. Not the best, but certainly worth a try.
9: Old Benoni Defense (c5)
Very aggressive and also inflexible. There are better ways to play the Benoni than to start with c5, especially since white can very easily form a pawn wedge on your queenside. It’s not bad though, and definitely playable albeit hyperaggressive.
10: English Defense (b6)
Transposes into the Owen’s Defense after e4. Aims to fianchetto the light-squared bishop. Very passive though. Usually leads to a Hippopotamus setup from what I’ve seen. Mostly meh.
11: Mikenas Defense (Nc3)
A mirrored Alekhine. Not good but not bad. Nothing much to say here.
12. St. George Defense (a6)
Fine against e4, but against d4, just play b5 first dude.
13. Englund Gambit (e5)
Gives white a free center pawn and is entirely reliant on an easy to avoid trap. The only good thing is it doesn’t cause a major structural weakness, which isn’t saying much.
14. h6
Like the St George, but you can’t play g5 because it’s just outright bad. Tempo wasting move.
15. a5
Gives black some interesting queenside attacking possibilities, but playing it on move one is a waste when it can be played with an even greater effect later. Tempo wasting move.
16. h5
Like a5, but replace queenside with kingside, and tack on a minor kingside weakness. Slightly worse tempo wasting move.
17. Australian Defense (Na6)
Develops a knight to an inferior square. A tempo wasting move that also prevents you from being able to effectively use your queenside knight in the beginning.
18. Nh6
Like Na6, but arguably worse since the kingside knight is generally more important in d4 openings.
19. f6
A tempo wasting move that weakens the kingside for no reason while also preventing natural development of the kingside knight. Just bad.
20. Borg Defense (g5)
Literally a free pawn and practically a free win from how much you manage to weaken the kingside with this move. If white plays e4 instead of Bxg5, you might as well just play f6 and end your suffering immediately. There is no reason anyone should be playing the Borg Defense. It isn’t even really a defense per se. It should be renamed to the Borg Surrender or something like that.
I think we pretty much entirely agree on everything except that you only considered the REALLY crappy Englund line and not all the various ones that are still not good but are technically playable presumably.
op thinks barnes is decent coz...
e4 f6 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5 e5
transposing to "a variation of the ruy"
first off i have no idea how even THIS is decent, but moreover
why did white not play 2 d4
or 3 d4
and whats the idea of Bb5?
and Nf3 is weird to play in the second move when the opp. has weakened e8-h5
If white does d4 black can go into the fried fox Defense, which looks terrible, but is actually playable. White is still better, but black should survive.