Thoughts on the Italian game: deutz gambit?

I generally just avoid these forcing algorithmic lines in positions that occur very frequently, like the Italian. Because at some point I just expect the opponents are going to know the theory. An e4/e5 player winds up in the italian like 1 in 6 games as black. So I really prefer the piano... because that's a very non-linear position. But that's just my opinion on it. Unfortunately most of the rest of the italian / practically all the lines in the scotch are very algorithmic like this.

I think this gambit is pretty uncommon and it seems dubious for white but is riddled with nasty traps. White can still get a decent position even if black knows the correct moves to make which are not natural given what is on the board. Sounds good for blitz and rapid. I played the giuco piano center attack for awhile but have recently become a little more sophisticated with the pianissimo which I really like for slower games.

from here 4. O-O is the 2nd most popular move and occurs in 25% of games. Black then responds with Nf6...

And now you play 5. d4, which is the 2nd most popular move occurring in 29% of games. And you've reached the Deutz gambit.

So black will face the Deutz gambit in 25% of 29% of his italian games... i.e. about 7.3% of them.

Statistically whether the Deutz performs well depends mostly on blacks immediate response. If he takes back exd4... which 28% of players do, blacks win percentages are bad and the engine doesn't like it either. If black plays the correct move Bxd4... which 65% of players do, his winrates are good and he has a pretty significant engine edge.

So this is basically a gambit the black player will face in 7% of italian games which has a strong 1st-move reply.. black needs to play precisely for a few more moves to secure an edge.

I'm also not really seeing the compensation after just a few moves. Yeah in the game you posted your opponent messed up... but the italian is filled with traps, you don't need to sac a pawn to get some interesting trappy position, you just need to wait a few moves. Of course it's harder to memorize the traps at that point... But also harder for your opponent to memorize a refutation.

Doesn't seem very good to me...

I've also been playing the move 4. O-O... in a few positions I've gone for d4 in one move as well. But after waiting, not immediately and not always. It depends on the move order, you can just play c3 or Re1 and wait for the position to ripen, and sometimes d4 becomes available. But playing it right away... meh

bishop takes is still pretty tricky for black, albeit better than the other options. White just plays Bg5 pinning the queen and there is a nasty trap that follows with natural moves.

Not 65% winrate, 65% of players playing the correct move. Winrate is like 50-50 or so. But engine thinks it's like -0.15 for black, I wouldn't want to go down that much in 65% of games. Very large sample size, 2200+ elo on lichess - guioco piano is one of the most played positions in chess.

I just edited i misread that.

Thanks for sharing informative topic.

Jude Acers (more of a hustler and entertainer than a strong chessplayer) has authored a book on a similar gambit (starting with 4.d4 rather than 4.0-0) which he baptised "Italian Gambit". His analyses are obsolete, but his gambit also has a point. IMO both gambits are "nothing special" against good play from Black.

The Deutz Gambit in the Italian Game is an aggressive pawn sacrifice to gain quick counterplay but is considered unsound at higher levels. For more gaming insights, visit Stardew Valley APK at .

The main move in the above position is c3.

Black is attacking the d4 square with 3 pieces and the move c3 helps white add an extra defender to the d4 square.

However, when I was a total noob, I didn’t know the above information.

Eventually, I started playing the c3 move and ended up playing a line know as Birds Attack.

However, before I learned to play c3, I played a different move which was more practical.

Most strong players told me 1 goal in opening is to get King Safety so I use to castle.

Than when my opponents played Nf6, I would just defend my e4 pawn with d3.

It was a very solid type of position.

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So now that I explain all the above, you can begin to understand the problems with the Gambit line your trying to play.

- You never defended the d4 square with c3.

You castled instead

- You never defended the e4 pawn with d3.

You played d4 instead

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Your center control is being threatened in this position because your last 2 moves have done nothing to defend your center squares.

If your really thinking of playing this line, you are really going to need to study this position very well so that you don’t get blown off the board.

I notice chess.com explorer is calling this a part of the 2 knights as soon as we reach the Deutz Gambit position.

Actually if black had played the 2 knights he could simply grab the pawn Nxe4 if white takes time to castle as is necessary for the gambit, black doesn't have to give up his bishop pair or know several lines to play good moves. White would have to foolishly castle in this position and black would then have to foolishly play Bc5 instead of Nxe4 to arrive at a Deutz gambit while from the Guico Piano (ie. with Bc5) it's totally natural.

So it's definitely a mistake, the Deutz Gambit is part of the Guico Piano (lichess says Italian Game: Deutz Gambit, not specifying whether Guico Piano or 2 knights).

You could for sure say that bypassing the tricky Deutz Gambit is one of the reasons to prefer the 2 knights to the Guico Piano.

Nope, Against the move 3…Nf6, White has the amazing move 4.Ng5

Or they could play the main line approach of 4.d3.

Reaching the Deutz Gambit from 2 Knights position is impossible!

The move order matters. 3. ... Bc5 in the above position makes it the Deutz (aka max lange attack). If black plays Nf6 its 2 knights/giuco which is much better for black. You'd be surprised how many 2000+ players I've beaten in the opening with the max lange. Pretty much don't play 1... e5 if you don't know the max lange I guess. I've been playing 1.d4 jobava/chigorin as white for the past few months and this post is kind of old. But as former (current) italian game enthusiast I pretty much just consider 3... Bc5 a win in this position. Its like when my opponents play Nc6 in the opening against me in the jobava-rapport london its just game over. That's why you have to study openings at least a little bit past 1700 i suppose lol.

Errr, nope. The Deutz isn't the same as the Max Lange Attack, which starts from this position (under several move orders):

And the Max Lange cannot by forced by White, Black has good alternatives, like:

And- last but not least, 3...Nc6 in the Jobava London is not "game over"- the position is extremely complicated.

https://youtu.be/56SwUHxGGmE

Studυing openings when your tactical skill is poor is useless- all you will achieve is losing superior, or even winning positions.

Yes, for the Max Lange Attack black would have to take with exd4 and then e5 is the Max Lange.

The Deutz gambit while tricky is "objectively" not great due to this, while the Max Lange is tricky and is also "objectively" a good and dangerous opening. If black had to automatically play into the Max Lange I think a lot fewer top players would play 3... Bc5 as their main defence to the Italian.

Apparently 79% of masters choose Bxd4 and with good reason since black is getting much better results with it, better results than white even and the computer is also minus for it.

Ya true but the deutz often turns into that max Lange position. 3 … NC6 is definitely a blunder in the jobava though. It’s not complicated for white when you know the lines. It’s very winning no matter what.

"Often" means nothing- it is not a forced sequence.

And in the Jobava, after 3..Nc6 4.Nb5 e5 etc the best white can achieve is this:

White is a pawn up, but Black has reasonable compensation due to the strong bishop pair.

The computer evaluates this as +0.7-0.8, which is light years away from "very winning no matter what". And white has to avoid many nasties to reach this.

We're not playing against stockfish though... and obviously I agree forced moves are best. But my point is, if your opponents are playing these moves... they aren't going to magically find the right ones. Because going in to the deutz/max lange/nc6 jobava are not comfortable positions to play as black lol