Two Knights' Defence

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General-Lee

Does anyone know how to refute black in this position? Please help because I reach it alot in my own games.

super12345

d4 is best I have done extensive research with Rybka. If you want I can post the results but it might shut Chess.com down. (150+ pages)

BigTy

I don't think there is a clear refutation to this line. Nxf7 is the most common I think, I used to play this as white alot and had some nice wins, but I found if black played really accurately and got his king over to the queenside often my compensation for the peice would be questionable. d4 is probably a better try, it blasts the position open and you still have the option of Nxf7 in the future.

MapleDanish

d4, exd4, O-O ... A refutation found right when computer analysis started becoming popular.  Black must play Na5 instead of Nxd5.

super12345

nxf7 is drawish with perfect play. Of course, someone who plays Nxd5 will not play perfectly. With D4 you will have two Rooks for the queen, which might be winning.

Narz
ih8sens wrote:

d4, exd4, O-O ... A refutation found right when computer analysis started becoming popular.  Black must play Na5 instead of Nxd5.


I wouldn't say it's refuted.  I'm already losing in a position stemming from that line. Undecided (comments welcome after the game)

http://www.chess.com/echess/game.html?id=22713961

Conquistador

There is only one move that gives a clear advantage: 6.d4

Look up the Lolli Attack, this destroys black or places him in a positional knightmare.

Personally, I love it when black plays 5...Nxd5.

crisy

"6.P-Q4! (6.NxP!? is the 'Fried Liver Attack') is so strong that 5....NxP is practically extinct."

The quotation is from Bobby Fischer's note to his game against Bisguier, NY State Open Championship 1963, game 45 in My 60 Memorable Games. So add Bobby to the list of people suggesting P-Q4, or d4 in modern notation.

General-Lee

nevermind, i got it on my own. After ...Nxd5?? white plays Nxf7!... Kxf7 then Qf3+!

  

mattattack99

I choose the more boring and less sharp 4. Nc3 trying to transpose into a four knights.

WanderingWinder
General-Lee wrote:

nevermind, i got it on my own. After ...Nxd5?? white plays Nxf7!... Kxf7 then Qf3+!

  

 


The last diagram you have there is actually won for black (perhaps white can barely escape if he doesn't play for a win, but it's a very thankless task, and white never really seems to go for a draw after playing the Fried Liver) with the next move being Ncb4. 6.d4 is a much better option for white, leading to a clear win in all variations, though not with total simplicity.

General-Lee
WanderingWinder wrote:
General-Lee wrote:

nevermind, i got it on my own. After ...Nxd5?? white plays Nxf7!... Kxf7 then Qf3+!

  

 


The last diagram you have there is actually won for black (perhaps white can barely escape if he doesn't play for a win, but it's a very thankless task, and white never really seems to go for a draw after playing the Fried Liver) with the next move being Ncb4. 6.d4 is a much better option for white, leading to a clear win in all variations, though not with total simplicity.


 Play the game buddy, it works.

Nytik
General-Lee wrote:

 Play the game buddy, it works.

 


After d4, exd4 is a silly move for black. With perfect play, black will be the one with all the chances. You really should research these things before coming up with such claims...

WanderingWinder
General-Lee wrote:
WanderingWinder wrote:
General-Lee wrote:

nevermind, i got it on my own. After ...Nxd5?? white plays Nxf7!... Kxf7 then Qf3+!

  

 


The last diagram you have there is actually won for black (perhaps white can barely escape if he doesn't play for a win, but it's a very thankless task, and white never really seems to go for a draw after playing the Fried Liver) with the next move being Ncb4. 6.d4 is a much better option for white, leading to a clear win in all variations, though not with total simplicity.


 Play the game buddy, it works.

 


Sure, if black plays badly, white will win. What opening is that not true of again? You didn't even incorporate my suggestion for black into your line

General-Lee
Nytik wrote:
General-Lee wrote:

 Play the game buddy, it works.

 


After d4, exd4 is a silly move for black. With perfect play, black will be the one with all the chances. You really should research these things before coming up with such claims...


 If I'm so silly find a better move in that position.Tongue out

WanderingWinder

8...Ncb4, like I already said (post #12)

Nytik
General-Lee wrote:
Nytik wrote:
General-Lee wrote:

 Play the game buddy, it works.

 


After d4, exd4 is a silly move for black. With perfect play, black will be the one with all the chances. You really should research these things before coming up with such claims...


 If I'm so silly find a better move in that position.


The correct move is c6. However, black has already made an inaccuracy by playing Ne7 rather than Nb4.

General-Lee
Nytik wrote:
General-Lee wrote:
Nytik wrote:
General-Lee wrote:

 Play the game buddy, it works.

 


After d4, exd4 is a silly move for black. With perfect play, black will be the one with all the chances. You really should research these things before coming up with such claims...


 If I'm so silly find a better move in that position.


The correct move is c6. However, black has already made an inaccuracy by playing Ne7 rather than Nb4.


 I'm always interested to learn something new. Play it on a board for me.Smile

hanngo

Ncb4,a3,NxP Kd1,NxR NxN is just HUGE

hanngo
LYCAN148 wrote:

Ncb4,a3,NxP Kd1,NxR NxN is just HUGE


as in good for white