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Veresov vs King's Indian?

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9thEagle

I have a question regarding Veresov vs King's Indian: 

I played both games as I would if I were each color (as black, I'm trying to make King's Indian my main weapon because I HATE queen's gambit . . . but I don't know much about the opening yet) and at move 5, the position has occured in top GM play (such as Anand). It did not occur with that specific move order, but the position happened. My question is: why don't people play e5? So far, I've only seen Qd2, but as far as I can tell, e5 constitutes a win for white? Again, I'm not saying that it is, but I am trying to learn why it's not. Mostly, I'm scared because if I were black and I were faced with the Veresov, I would be lost at 5.e5 (I have tried playing lower rated players at that position, and I always lose as black).Thanks!

9thEagle

I can't tell if you're just trolling or not . . . but regardless of any refutation of moves prior to move 5, it DID occur ant 5. e5 was NOT played . . . this is less of an opening question, and more of a why-was-this-move-played question. Don't even think of it as a move played in the opening, think of it as a position set up, and why is Qd2 a better move than e5? I seriously want some help.

LavaRook

You can't really play the KID against a Veresov. By move 3, the game has actually tranposed to a Pirc Defense, and unless you play that against 1.e4, you have to answer 2.Nc3 with d5.

9thEagle

Again, it's not so much the opening I'm concerned about as why e5 isn't played. And after looking at this line, I don't think I will KID vs Veresov . . . unless someone can give black a way out. But if this position is so inferior already, how did two GM's get into it? And why didn't white play e5? I am also looking at this line from white's perspective, and I've played games exactly like this (including e5). Granted, these people were all rated lower than me and only knew KID, but I completely creamed them. Supposing they put up a good defense, e5 should NOT be the best move . . . but why?

RetiFan

No, you don't have to answer Nc3 with d5, because Pirc Defense is perfectly playable, and Nfd7 is not a bad move at all!

Actually, Nfd7 is a manuevering idea to put the knight at b6, which is kind of equalizing.

Let's look at a game which ended with a draw to understand more about this defense.



9thEagle

Thank you! But why does white play 6.f4? I would (at almost half white's rating) play something like Nf3, Nd5, or h4. But at least I see that e5 is playable for white, and survivable for black (and I will probably use it--I think most players my level that have not seen this before will consider 3 knight moves to be a waste of time in the opening without further analysis-maybe I could consider it a trap?). But I do see that e5 can be weakening, while Qd2 is very solid. Thank you!

jontsef

Eagle, first, as LR said, you're playing the Pirc - a different opening -  which means White doesn't have to play Bg5: he can play 4.f4, 4.Nf3, 4.Be3, 4.Be2, 4.g3, 4.Bc4, etc. All of those have theory...

Anyways, the good news is that if you do end up learning what to do against those, then you actually have a defense against 1.e4 too.

Regarding 5.e5: First, Black has the option of playing 5...Nfd7, as Reti said, it is a common idea in the Pirc against e5. Ivanchuk played it too.

However, it might be unnecessarily risky. 5...dxe5 is still perfectly good though and is recommended in The Pirc in Black and White by Vigus. But, after 6.dxe5 Black should play 6...Ng4! instead of Qxd1.



RetiFan
RetiFan

Sorry one of the variations is wrong here;



chapablanca2000

Good comments by Retifan. Usually, attempts to blow black off the board right from the beginning, with moves like e5 , Nd5 and h4, peter out to early equality, or even backfire. After all, you are violating an opening principle by moving the same piece (or pawn) twice, or ignoring the center. Often the right defense isn't obvious, as you showed (...Qxd1 is an understandable, if incorrect, reaction to White's aggression), but eventually people seem to work out the right way to meet an early (premature?) attack. 

Kaluki
RetiFan wrote:

No, you don't have to answer Nc3 with d5, because Pirc Defense is perfectly playable, and Nfd7 is not a bad move at all!

Actually, Nfd7 is a manuevering idea to put the knight at b6, which is kind of equalizing.

Let's look at a game which ended with a draw to understand more about this defense.

 



See, that's making the assumption black has the Pirc defense in their repetoire. And if you think the King's Indian plays like the Pirc, then you're sadly mistaken.

RetiFan

Kaluki Of course, good point.

9thEagle

Well, thank you for all the help, all this just brings up more questions.

In jontsef's game, why 8.Rd1+? It seems kind of rash to me . . . I would castle after kicking the knight (I think it would give black too much if I immediately castle) and then we would be in an opposite wings game, which I frequently get into with Veresov. 

Never mind about Anand . . . That game was P.Leko-V. Topalov (the author started the discussion with the comment saying how Anand was facing Topalov for the World Championship . . . This caused me to remember Anand instead of Leko). Instead of KID, what should I play vs d4? I pretty much just want to avoid getting into Queen's Gambit, and would like to make it as tactical a game as possible (I lose to 900's in QG but beat 1600's if I get my Veresov). As you can see, my positional understanding isn't my strong suit.

paulgottlieb--what about 6.Nd5 Nc6 7.Bb5?

Thanks everyone! I'm not arguing with anyone (that would be pointless) but I am just trying to learn.

9thEagle

Mr. Prefen, that makes sense. Thanks! 

RetiFan

Please, enough of "it's not KID" argument, we understood it when it's mentioned tenth time!