ways to answer 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 and by avoiding the Catalan

I am a player around 2000 FIDE elo and I have been renewing my opening repertoire recently. I used to play the King's indian since I liked closed or at least defined structures in the center. However now that I have reached a higher level people tend to play some sidelines especially something based on a kingside fianchetto is quite unpleasant for black since many positions are just slightly favorable for white but very hard to play for black. I decided to switch and has now started playing the Nimzo and Bogo as black vs 1.d4. I find those openings very playable and they lead to positions I find myself comfortable with, however I also need to find something against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 (which I formerly answered with my king's indian setup). For the moment I think black has mainly two ways to play against these moves; black could either play in a QGD orthodox manner (and this was my original plan), or black can play with c5-based setups (I am excluding setups with e5 since they are not playable after 1.Nf3). My problem with playing the QGD setup is that white can very easily transpose to main lines of the QGD or he can play the Catalan. Both these aspects doesn't appeal very much to me. I would have to learn a lot of new theory and I generally don't like playing the black side of a catalan (this was the main reason for why I chose to play the nimzo and not the QGD). As black I often finds myself forced to enter complicated variations with dxc4 or play what I consider a slightly worse position with less space and a worse light-square bishop. The option was therefore to play c5-based setups, but a huge issue here is that against 1.Nf3 c5 white can transpose to the Sicilian with 2.e4. Of course black can delay the move c5 and maye play 1...Nf6, but this doesn't fit well with the setup I planned to play which was a botvinnik setup as black where the knight goes to e7 and not f6. I could of course play the positions with ...Nf6, ...c5, ...g6 but my impression is that against this setup, white has a good amount of ways to play a Maroczy Bind structure and I generally want to avoid those structures unless there is a specific reason not to fear them.

Finally my question is do you know of a way to handle the Catalan that doesn't require so much knowledge, doesn't involve dxc4 and that doesn't leave black slightly more passive?Maybe simpler is to find a way to answer 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 which doesn't give white the option to transpose into the Catalan or to give white a maroczy bind or the option to transpose into a Sicilian?

1..f5 going in Dutch directions is a way to meet both 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.

Agree, and I have seriously considered it, but I doubt it soundness. Of course people can play the dutch and have good practical chances with it, but objectively I don't think it's very good. As I mentioned my impression is that the higher up you come people are more likely to know theory or at least play lines that shut down much of your practical chances and I believe both the dutch and the king's indian are openings that are heavily dependent on these chances

With a Nimzo repertoire it makes more sense to try to make 1. c4 b6 work than go the Dutch direction. Not sure about 1. Nf3 b6 though.

H

some combination of e5, Nb->to c6 and h5 early ... challenge center, get a knight out (queen side cause opposite sides eventual castle is more fun) and early harry push to threaten to break their kingside pawn structure if you see the  kingside fiancheato. 

Wheelcart, as I mentioned in my first post it's quite hard to get any ...e5 setups against 1.Nf3. If I start with moves like 1...d6 then white can always play 2.d4 in order to prevent you and suddenly I either have to play some sort of pirc or a King's indian

yes in that I agree I should have clarified that my post was more against C4 G6 by white. With 1 Nf3 well if you don't want to answer with 1. black d5 (which is the principle move) then Nf6, C5 e6 and c6 are all options, even black mustang (black 1 NC6) but after 1. black NC6 if white knows what they are doing they'll still clamp down on the e5 square with 2. d4 most likely but sometimes they'll play e4 and let you transpose with e5. So basically if they play reti you'll be most likely in some Nf6/e6 system with black if you play the principle moves. I also think 1.) w Nf3 b c5 2,) w e4 b e6 3.) w d5 b CxD4 is interesting. Basically white is trying to prevent black e5 while black should be trying to prevent white d4. 

EDIT: after 3. cxd4 ( in the above post) by black and NXd4 by white black can go Ngto F6 preventing white into going into the bind. Because if they do your knight on f6 will take their e4 pawn. take a look at that line as that is the most interesting I think but if you hate playing the sicilian idk. Of course that is situational but there are ways to prevent the bind. 

Maybe I should have been more clear about what I was asking for. I do know that setups with 1...d5 is the most principle and objectively best. Setups with c5 comes in second and are also well respected. Of course there are alternative options like the dutch and setups with ...e5 or ...b6, but they are either slightly dubious or they can easily fall into some move order tricks.

What I am requesting are either some way to play against the catalan that follows the criteria from my first post (that way I would play with ...d5), or some way to play the c5-setups that doesn't fall into a maroczy bind or can transpose to the sicilian (I think I have explained it more clearly in the first post). Finally I will also add that this will be my classical repertoire and not some repertoire for blitz games. That means the opening need to have some soundness and for me that would be d5-setups or c5-setups (unless I am missing something very basic)

EDIT: after 3. cxd4 ( in the above post) by black and NXd4 by white black can go 4.) Ngto F6 preventing white into going into the bind. Because if they do your knight on f6 will take their e4 pawn. take a look at that line as that is the most interesting I think but if you hate playing the sicilian idk. Of course that is situational but there are ways to prevent the bind. 

Like white can try to overprotect their e4 pawn with the their light squared bishop instead of developing their B knight but then black continues to develop naturally (knights before bishops) and has a nice game. Like after white recaptures the d pawn with their knight and black plays knight to f6 to challenge white's e4 pawn if white tries to protect their e4 pawn black will challenge white's knight on d4 by bringing the black b knight to c6 etc...basically the just is black has moves to not give white a breather to push c4 and enter the bind. And in case after that exchange in the center and maybe trading knights white still plays c4 instead of say castling then black just responds to c4 with pushing their e6 pawn to e5 and is theoretically slightly better already. 

Sorry, I had some problems to follow your line, but for what I understand you discussed the position arising after 1.Nf3 c5 2.e4 e6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 and now 4...Nf6 would prevent the Maroczy. This is of course true and your line is totally playable (most Sicilian lines are), however I don't wanted to transpose into the sicilian since I don't play it against 1.e4 (I play the french). The sicilian is well respected and I could try to learn it but there is a lot of theory that I doesn't want to learn. For instance in your line after white plays 5.Nc3 there is a lot to know. some examples are after 5...d6 white has the option of 6.g4!? and these positions are just too open for my taste I prefer more defined structures. Another example is after 5...Nc6 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bf4 e5 8.Bg5 and this has transposed to the sveshnikov which is well respected, but again requires a lot of theory to handle.

Also I want to clarify that I can play maroczy structure and some parts of my repertoire does include these structures, but I would prefer to have exchanged of for example the dark-square bishop, gained control over some important dark-squares or be able to break with d5/b5. I can play the structure, but preferably only when white has been forced to make some concessions. I really appreciate your effort, but unfortunately I don't think your answers yet are exactly what I am looking for

yes the line I mentioned leads to a more opened game. For more closed positions against white 1 Nf3 and not wanting to see a kingside fianchetto by white the best bet is meeting 1Nf3 with 1. d5 and then meeting 2. d4 by white with black 2. c6. They'll probably won't fianchetto the light squared bishop in a slav structure by black. 

And in case the reti player plays white 2. c4 instead of d4 well you push your d pawn to d4 and enter a reversed benoni game with which black should be happy with. 

The problem is that 1.Nf3 players are very likely to fianchetto their bishop and there are a couple of big lines where white does fianchetto against this d5, c6 or d5-e6 setup. This is something I am considering, but generally I am not satisfied by black's position in those cases since black either has to take up the gauntlet and play some dxc4 stuff or my impression is that black's position is simply slightly more passive and with a worse light-squared bishop (this impression might be totally wrong so I am very open to suggested ways to play against 1.Nf3 followed by a kingside fianchetto).

Yeah going over all the possible lines would take a lot of time. Like am looking at 1.Nf3 , c6 currently and there are some fascinating lines there too if black just meets 1Nf3 with a Caro Kann type move instead of D5. Could give you flexibility as black to meet any of white's plans this way without over-commiting from the start and still saying you have plans as black to block and white lightsquared bishop fianchetto ideas from the start. 

The idea of 1 c6 by black is also saying black will move their own lightsquared bishop out promto and pin white's f3 Knight to further undermine any fianchetto ideas. 

Catalan is the favourite opening of Leela Zero and Alpha Zero.  

Leela has trained around a billion of games now and statistically it is the best chance for white. 

1...c6 is interesting (I had not thought about it), but it would likely transpose to d5 setups or if black tries to avoid this for example with a c6, and d6 setup this will very likely transpose to some old Indian lines which I am pretty sure theory considers as better for white who enjoys more space.

 Wow.  

Any guess as to why these computers like the Catalan?  And what do these computers use when they are black against the Catalan

If you are going to play the Nimzo and Bogo Indian, you have to deal with the Catalan anyway.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 - choices are

3...d5 - Main Line Catalan

3...Bb4+ - Bogo-Catalan (different from the Bogo-Indian

3...c5 - Fianchetto Variation of the Modern Benoni.

If you play the Nimzo, you have to know what to do against the Catalan.  That is just the breaks!

black's ideal scenario is to provoke e3 instead of e4 etc with black pawn push to d4 if white fianchettos and castles too early. 

Thrillerfan, you are true to some extend, but I consider 3...Bb4+ as the Bogo even though I think chess.com classifies it as a Catalan game after 3.g3. the reason for why I consider this the bogo is that after the real bogo with 3.Nf3 Bb4+ white can if he want play with g3 setups and this transposes to 3.g3 Bb4+. I therefore don't see any reason to consider the 3.g3 Bb4+ as the Catalan when the same positions can arise after 3.Nf3 Bb4+ and that is considered as the Bogo Indian