ways to answer 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 and by avoiding the Catalan

You cannot avoid the Catalan: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 is the Catalan.
3...Bb4+ is in the style of Nimzo-Bogo

See Ding-Alekseenko, Yekaterinenburg Candidates 2021

https://en.chessbase.com/post/candidates-2020-r7

As I just mentioned, I am totally aware that chess.com classifies 3.g3 as the Catalan, but when 3...Bb4+ very easily transposes to lines that white can almost certainly get if he wants to in the 3.Nf3 Bb4+ I consider it the Bogo. If you still say that it is the Catalan then okay, but that means 3.Nf3 Bb4+ also can transpose to the Catalan and if you have read my first post I am not necessarily against the Catalan if I can avoid the complicated dxc4 lines and the lines where black is slightly more cramped and with a worse light-squared bishop. After 3.g3 and 3...Bb4+ black does avoid all that.

You can never be forced to capture ...dxc4 in the Catalan. You are not forced to accept a Queen's Gambit either. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 is the Catalan per ECO and it is also the main sequence to reach it e.g. in the Ding-Alekseenko game. It is also Catalan in its ideas: Bb4 retreats to e7 and ...d5 is played. In the pure Bogo black usually captures Bxd2+. How do you play the Nimzo: with ...d5, with ...c5, with ...b6, with ...d6 and ...e5, with ...Ne4 and ...f5? It is all under the denominator Nimzo, but very different ideas. Also what do you play as white and how do you respond to 1 e4? If you play the Sicilian 1 e4 c5 as black, then it may make sense to play 1 c4 c5 and 1 Nf3 c5 as these may transpose into a Sicilian. If you open 1 e4 as white, then it may make sense to go for a reverse Sicilian 1 c4 e5, as Caruana played twice against Carlsen in their world championship match. 

I think I have answered some of these questions in one of my previous posts, but I can say it again. I play the french against 1.e4 and therefore I don't want to play 1.c4 c5 as my opponent now has the option of 2.e4 which transposes to a Sicilian. with the Nimzo I play a lot of lines based on the break ...c5, but of course white has many options and sometimes I play setup based on ...d6, ...e5 and sometimes I play ...b6...d6. I am generally only avoiding the setups where black plays  d5. As white I play 1.c4 myself, but I don't consider 1.c4 e5 as an option since I can't play 1...e5 against 1.Nf3.

Yes in the game Ding-Alekseenko they transposed to the Catalan, but the way I play the bogo is with ...Qe7 and then later on ...Bxd2 and ...d6, ...e5 and this is quite far from the normal Catalan positions (if you still call it a catalan)

Against 1.c4 I was planning to play 1...c5 and then play a botvinik setup with Nge7. The issue here is that after 1.Nf3 I can't play 1...c5 which after 2.e4 transposes to the Sicilian. I can of course try to start with 1.Nf3 and then 1...Nf6 and only then 2...c5. The issue here is that I can't get in the botvinnik setup since 1...Nf6 doesn't fit well with it. If I try to play the setups with ...Nf6,...c5, ...g6 I am afraid of white having the option to enter a Maroczy (please show me a way to avoid it or at least only enter a marcozy when white has made some sort of a  concession)

Why they like Catalan? 

Leela is forced to play random moves in her intital training.  She collect statistics of her win/ loss chance after every group of training games. ( around 25, 000 games). And Catalan give her the best win / loss statistics for white.

What is with black? 

Leela play Nf6, e6.d5 setup against Catalan. ( she doesnt take dxc4 variation in Catalan). 

that's some interesting stats, but what the computers play are totally irrelevant for us humans. Humans don't play like computers and humans don't play against computers. As long as humans play against humans there will always be a practical aspect of the game and the computer doesn't include it. Of course you can use the computer to analyse, but especially in choosing openings computers aren't very useful for humans

I disagreed.

When human play better and better, accuracy become better and better. As you are facing 2k+, accuracy is key in opening preparation. 

Many top GM use highly advanced computers for their opening preparations.  They also hire second(s)/ assistance in their opening preparation

See how much money Nepo invest. 

nepo why you so grumpy

No, 3.Nf3 Bb4+ is indeed the Bogo-Indian.

3.g3 Bb4+ can transpose to a Bogo but does not have to.  White has additional options having not committed the Knight yet.  For example, he could put it on e2 or h3 and you have no transposition.

In the Bogo-Indian, where g3 has not been played yet, the Bishop typically sits on b4 until taken (Bxb4) or chased (a3).

In the Catalan, it is typically immediately retreated to e7, the purpose of the check being that forcing White to put the Bishop on d2 is to his detriment as the Bishop would be better placed on b2 in a Closed catalan or f4 or g5 in am open catalan.  Here it just gets in White's way is Black's idea.  It would be bad to trade Bishops here as in the Catalan setup by White, the DSB is White's worst piece.  Why get rid of it for him?

1.c4 c5 2.e4 is horrible for White, regardless if reached from an English or Sicilian.

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 will always open up the possibility to White of a Maroczy Bind setup, and if Black Fianchettos his Bishop, you could end up straight in an Accelerated Dragon.

You will not be able to get a botvinnik setup yourself every time, but based on what you are saying, you could go as follows:

1.c4 c5 and now:

2.e4? Is just bad.  Learn basic strategy about weak squares (d4) and you are fine.

2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 Nc7 with ...e5 coming

2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Nc3 Nc7 same thing.

Here is where White can avoid your botvinnik setup - the Anti-Benoni

2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 and now you have to go elsewhere.  You have the positional lines with 4...e6 or you can play the Kasparov Gambit, 4...e5 5.Nb5 d5 6.cxd5 Bc5.

Thrillerfan, answering your first post. 

As I have already said I know that 3.g3 and 3...Bb4+ is classified as the Catalan, but if black wants to he can transpose to the Bogo. White playing Ne2 or Nh3 is just not good and is never played in those lines.

And black does not always wait for white to either take on b4 or chase him away with a3. The bogo can be played in many different ways and  some of them include Bxd2 there is nothing wrong by playing in that way as black. it does not favor white to exchange the DSB. I won't say that it favors black either, but by exchanging of the pieces black get's a very clear plan to place his pawns on ...d6, ...e5 and that way he can get his LSB going.

Answering your second post.

Sorry, but I of course meant that 1.Nf3 (not 1.c4) 1...c5 2.e4 transposes to the Sicilian. Your following lines are however very interesting.

My idea was to play 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5 (although looking at it now I see that white can play with 4.e3 and a quick d4 and this might not be what I want. )

2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3 and now 5...e5 is the botvinnik setup

Your lines based on d5 ends up in a sort of reversed maroczy not a botvinnik (but I still think your lines are very valid options)

I have to admit that i was a bit unaware of the option 2.Nf3 Nc6 and then 3.d4!? as you mention there are options within ...e6 so that might be something to take a look at.

My main problem were as mentioned that after 1.Nf3 I more or less has to respond with 1...Nf6 if I doesn't want the transposition to the Sicilian and then after 2.c4 c5 the setups with ...e5 are now much harder. 

I can as you said aim for something like 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.g3 and now 3...d5 looks quite reasonable to me. 3.Nc3 d5 is also possible, but here I might not like 4.cxd5 Nxd5 and 5.d4!? as this position seems a little bit more comfortable for white.

Are there any way that I can avoid committing my knight to f6 immediately?

do you know of any good ways to fight the 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 lines for black?

how do you play against my last line which was 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.d4? (maybe I have to avoid it an play 3...Nc6)

or should i aim for something completely different?

#24
So you play 1 c4 as white, 1 e4 e6 as black and now you want to play Nimzo 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 or Bogo 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 Bb4+ as black. This means you cannot avoid the Catalan 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3, but you can still play 3...Bb4+ like Alekseenko. Now you worry about the transpositions from 1 c4 and 1 Nf3. Most logical seems to play 1...Nf6 in both cases. Indeed that forsakes the Botvinnik system with ...Nge7. It seems you have too many conflicting requirements. The root cause of your confusion is probably that the Nimzo-Bogo is no single solution to everything like the King's Indian Defence is.

#32

I am totally aware that there are some requirement and I didn't find a solution, therefore I am now asking here. (For all I know there might not be any satisfied way to answer my question. )

I am not forced to play the botvinnik setup, but it would be nice if possible. As ThrillerFan pointed out white can always if he want to play the move 3.d4 so I can't get my botvinnik setup all the time. The reason for why I wanted the botvinnik; is because I play it as white and I have some worries that 1...Nf6, ...c5, ...g6, ...Bg7 would allow white to play a Maroczy .

I am not saying that I refrain completely from the Maroczy, but if white has a good version then I find it quite uncomfortable as black.

Finally I don't think the Nimzo/bogo is the root to my problem. True, contrary to the King's Indian I now also has to find something against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3, but that shouldn't be a huge problem in itself. The root of my problem is that I fear the Catalan (if I play d5, e6 setups) and the maroczy (if I play with c5)

You may fear too much. Ok you dislike the Catalan and the Maroczy, but how often will you encounter those? King's Indian Defence is straightforward: 1...Nf6, 2...g6, 3...Bg7, 4...d6 no matter what. Nimzo Indian is nothing like that 1...Nf6, 2...e6, 3...Bb4 depends on what white does.

You can say that the first move of the king's indian is straightforward, but when the variations start to get's deeper black will have to remember a lot of theory just to stay in the game and have some chances. I knew a lot of theory and I was quite comfortable in the main lines, but when I started to climb up to a higher level people tends to play more g3-lines and these are very good to neutralize counter play. White does have a lot of options against the Nimzo, but objectively the Nimzo is sounder and I very much like the positions that arise. In the nimzo you don't have this need of theory. If you forget something you will never find yourself in a losing position.

Anyway I am not here to discuss the king's indian as I have decided to leave it behind me.

You should probably play 1.Nf6 against Nf3 and c4. In the c4 lines you can play c5 if he plays g3, Nf3, or Nc3. Against Nf3 you have to face the kings indian attack but it is not the most challenging opening out there. With this choice you dont have to face the catalan and the kings indian could easily transpose to english. A example line is: Nf3 Nf6 G3 C5 Bg2 G6 0-0 Bg7 and a common move is C4.

Most consistent seems either 1 c4 Nf6 1 Nf3 Nf6 or 1 c4 e6 1 Nf3 e6 seeking transpose into your Nimzo/Bogo. There is indeed more theory on the King's Indian Defence and you do run a higher risk of losing with it especially in the main line Rio de Janeiro. However the King's Indian Defence works against everything, while the Nimzo/Bogo/Catalan complex is more strategical and poses transposition problems.

I think the biggest issue is that he or she is trying to do anything possible to get the exact reverse of his White game.

That is unhealthy for 2 reasons.

1) Lack of diversity in pawn structure leads to playing moves out of habit rather than analyzing the position.  Opponent switches move order and they could fall into something really bad.

2) Not all White systems work as Black.  For example, the line I suggested leads to no d-pawn, not a pawn on d6, which can be inferior for Black here.  Think about the Dragon.  A reverse Dragon is possible, but Black has to take the Classical Dragon route.  Reverse Yugoslav is no good as the extra tempo makes a huge difference.

He may be best off just avoiding the lines with ...e5 all together!

 I think that's a very bold statement by you. First of all you do not know me at all, you barely know what kind of openings I play, nor do you know how I play, or which variation I play. Claiming that I am trying to play similar setups all the time is just not true. Moreover I didn't ask for some philosophical way to improve at chess. There are hundred thousand of theories how you should improve and what you should avoid etc.. There is really no true answer of how to improve and I have red about so many people claiming that they know what's good for you and not, while in reality they don't know, nobody knows. The simplest way to learn is to play and analyse and that's almost the only certain thing we can say.