Ok, i just looked up the dutch the first time ever in my database and this is what i came up with:
Dutch Experts, please correct my variations.
(Update: Petrosianpupil improves with 8...Qf7! in the Leningrad (4...Bg7) with 8.Re1. The white rook then is missed on f1 to protect f2. Therefore i replace it with 8.b3)
Thanks petrosian, i updated my post.
In sub-variations the best line is put at the end, isnt it? So i intended 7...Qe8 to be the best alternative to 7...c6.
either the Bf4 setup which is super stronk or the g3-Nh3 setup. both easy game.
I learned a few things about the ...c6 and the ...Qe8 variation through the Bird book by Lakadalwa. The ...c6 (and c3) idea is not super-necessary. Granted, it is a great defensive move, but in some ways, Qe1 (and ...Qe8) is more to the point if you wanna push that e-pawn two squares quickly.
I don't, and I learned the c3 moves through seeing Danielsen's games, but after reading Laka's book, I do understand the more direct Qe1 a bit more. ...Nb4 is nothing more than an afterthought with Na3 and c3, so it is debatable that Qe1 might still be more to the point. I cannot say that it is a better move, but that if you are wanting to push e4, perhaps it is more to the point.
I will take your word for it, I know more about c3 than Qe1.
Raphael variation produces a positional and tangible adventage. I think so!
CHECK my complete video to tackle the dutch defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH9MnLU8ahA&feature=youtu.be
If you get time I would like to know what you think of the e book its not that expensive, its not a repretoire book but has games that have plenty of ideas.
How about you PM me and I can give you the game list and you can review the games and get some basic ideas and see if it is something worth pursuing for you? I do think he is quite descriptive, however I still think the best Bird books I ever read were by Soltis.
Raphael variation produces a positional and tangible adventage. I think so!
I think the advantage is in space, but not enough for a win. White still needs to understand the positions, so I think understanding is key for who will win that battle (I guess it's that way with everything, right lol).
Watch my lesson to know how to play against dutch defense
I'm a lifelong Dutch player (Classical and Stonewall) but I always play 1...e6 rather than 1...f5. This saves learning the Staunton Gambit and also leads to the occasional 1. d4 player accidentally transposing to a French and then regretting it. (I'm also a lifelong French player, and 1. d4 guys are not likely to be prepared for it.)
The lines that give me the most trouble involve an early Kingside fianchetto for White. White gets a lot of pressure on the queenside and Black's kingside attack is sometimes not enough compensation. I have taken to playing the Stonewall against the fianchetto, which has worked better than the Classical, but it's still troublesome. So that's what I would recommend to a White player.
In theory playing for an early e4 should also be good for White, but I have not faced that as often.
I had one game against a master that went 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. g4. Quite a shock, but I survived to a reasonable endgame (though I eventually lost). I haven't been that far out of book on move 3 in a long time!
I'm a lifelong Dutch player (Classical and Stonewall) but I always play 1...e6 rather than 1...f5. This saves learning the Staunton Gambit and also leads to the occasional 1. d4 player accidentally transposing to a French and then regretting it. (I'm also a lifelong French player, and 1. d4 guys are not likely to be prepared for it.)
The lines that give me the most trouble involve an early Kingside fianchetto for White. White gets a lot of pressure on the queenside and Black's kingside attack is sometimes not enough compensation. I have taken to playing the Stonewall against the fianchetto, which has worked better than the Classical, but it's still troublesome. So that's what I would recommend to a White player.
In theory playing for an early e4 should also be good for White, but I have not faced that as often.
I had one game against a master that went 1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. g4. Quite a shock, but I survived to a reasonable endgame (though I eventually lost). I haven't been that far out of book on move 3 in a long time!
I totally agree with you about the 1...e6 - I just recently made the switch myself! With that said, that means I have to learn a few lines in the French, but this is no big deal in the long run, seeing I have struggled for years to find a 1. e4 defense that fit my style. I think this marriage of French and Dutch for me is a good idea.
The early kingside fianchetto doesn't seem to trouble me that much, except for sometimes trying to break through his castled position, but I think there are other ways to tackle the position (presuming we are both discussing Stonewall here). I don't play the Classical as much, as it doesn't fit my style as well as the Stonewall.
That 3. g4 gambit - there is another one that you should check out (for 1...f5 players) with 1. d4 f5 2. g4!? fxg 3. Bf4!?, which is pretty wild.
Against g4 d5 and normal developing.
Both Botwinnik , Yusupove and Nigel Short ( to name a few ) played 1.d4 e6 and only after 2.c4 pushed the f-pawn. Both players liked the French as well , so this move order is a flexible way to avoid "early tricks" against the Dutch.
As far as I know there is no clear refugation of the Dutch but it has never been a favorite on the highest levels or wc-matches.
Somehow GM's think it's fishy.
I find it funny that in some of the "anti-Dutch" lines, it kind of pushes you into a type of Stonewall many times anyway. I am like, hey, you let me play exactly what I wanted! :P
About the Raphael variation, finally i wrote these lines. (In spanish, sorry!)
"II CON LA VARIANTE RAPHAEL, LAS NEGRAS PARECEN ENTRAR EN DIFICULTADES.
Presentan especiales dificultades las variantes del tipo Ag5 o Cc3 y Ag5. Vamos a ver de momento, dos variantes.
A------- LAS NEGRAS PARECE QUE SUFREN INCLUSO AUNQUE LAS BLANCAS NO CAMBIEN EN F6.
Por equipos Ibiza 2014: Leandro-Pepe.
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 Be76. Nf3 O-O 7. O-O b6 8. Ne2 Ba6 9. Bxa6 Nxa610. Nf4 Qd6 11. Nd3 c5 12. c4 dxc4 13. Nde5cxd4 14. exd4 c3 15. bxc3 Ne4 16. Bxe7 Qxe7 17.Qe2 Nb8 18. c4 Nd7 19. Rac1 Rac8 20. Rfd1 Rfd821. Qb2 Ng5 22. Nxg5 Qxg5 23. Nf3 Qf6 24. Re1Rc7 25. Qa3 Nf8 26. Qe3 Rd6 27. h3 h6 28. Qf4Rcd7 29. c5 Rd5 30. c6 g5 31. Qb8 Rf7 32. c7 g433. c8=Q gxf3 34. Qg3+ Rg7 35. Qxf3 Rxd4 36.Rcd1 Rc4 37. Qxc4 1-0
Y aquí, en verdad encuentro inexplicable que Leandro no cambiara el Axf6 y lo de Pepe de jugar b6 y Aa6, que pienso que Leandro pudo haber aprovechado mejor de lo que hizo.
· Si la idea fundamental de esta variante, es ceder la pareja de alfiles, el alfil malo por una mala estructura de peones del negro, no veo lógico que Leandro no cambie.
· El Ac8 en las cerradas suele ser o relativamente malo en b7, o directamente malísimo en c8. Pero no por ello deja de cumplir funciones defensivas, como en este caso defender el peón retrasado. No tiene aparte, demasiado sentido descolocar el Cb8, ponerlo en a6 y apartarlo de funciones centrales y defensivas. De todas formas, el hecho de que se cambie el alfil bueno de las negras por el alfil malo de las blancas, hace que la posición negra sea objetivamente muy difícil.
Pero si observamos esta secuencia de jugadas:
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 Be7 6. Nf3 O-O 7.O-O Nbd7 8. Ne2 Ne4 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4 c6
Se ve que el juego negro es bastante mejor, de lo que fue el de Pepe contra Leandro. Pero aun así, sigo viendo muchas dificultades para las negras. (Suele pasar que cuando buscas algo para las negras, lo encuentras para las blancas y viceversa).
Parece ser sin embargo, que la clave de este sistema con e3 donde las blancas no cambian en f6, es reaccionar en el centro y expandirse en el flanco de dama de la mano de c5. Si se juega Ad3, entonces realmente con c5 se nota un cierto entorpecimiento en las piezas blancas del flanco de dama. Y si se juega Cf3 no hay tanto entorpecimiento, pero obviamente hay que hacer algo y no es precisamente fácil reaccionar. Hay una partida en la que se jugó Ce5 y las negras jugaron mal y perdieron. Pero se ve claro que con jugadas como a6, parece que las negras se mantienen. Luchan por el espacio en ambos flancos, lo que significa que aspiran seriamente a ganar el punto. De manera que Pepe cometió el error de hacer un juego esterotipado de variantes principales, sin entender lo concreto de la posición. Y a tales errores habría que añadir los ya mencionados de cambiar el alfil, dejarse agujeros, etc. Pero la clave fue que no jugó c5.
Obsérvese sin embargo, que esto pasa de momento con la variante en la cual las blancas no cambian en f6, pero veamos qué pasa si las blancas cambian en f6.
B SI LAS BLANCAS CAMBIAN EN F6, LAS NEGRAS PARECE QUE SUFREN IGUALMENTE, SI NO MÁS.
Para poder continuar con negras, hay que entender muy bien el juego de maniobras que surge en esta estructura de peones. Entonces se puede ver una secuencia de jugadas, tal que así:
1. d4 f5
2. Cc3 Cf6
3. Ag5 d5 (Puesto que el objetivo del blanco es cambiar Axf6, o jugar e4, las negras impiden e4 y forman un muro de piedra aventajado, donde el peón doblado controla importantes casillas centrales).
4. Axf6 exf6
5. E3 Ae6 (El alfil se dirige a f7 a defender el flanco de rey).
6. Ad3 Cc6
7. A3 Dd7
8. Cge2 Ce7
9. Cf4 Af7
10. Df3 c6
11. H4 Cc8
Y por fin podemos ver algo de luz en el túnel del negro. Me explico: se forma el muro de piedra con el Ce4, e5 no puede ser ocupada por el caballo, a causa del peón de f6. Es verdad que la pareja de alfiles no es en este caso compensación por doblar peones, pero sí que lo es en cambio el espacio que toman las negras y el hecho de que las blancas, sin ser la posición totalmente abierta, al menos no puedan bloquear la posición. Y da un poco lo mismo la secuencia concreta de jugadas. En caso de amenaza táctica, pues obviamente hay que defender, pero la maniobra es Ce7-c8-d6 y e4. No deja de ser curioso que frecuentemente, en las cerradas, cuando las blancas cambian un alfil por un caballo, que el único caballo de las negras sea el más fuerte de los tres que quedan."
Ok, about the Raphael 2. Nc3 variation - I just took my first class with GM Gavrikov this morning, and I am going to share that portion of the class with you guys (since we covered MANY Dutch sidelines, as well as some portions of the mainline):
He teaches classes online via Vsee and playchess.com for only $15/class! And these are personalized classes, my entire class was dedicated to lines in the Dutch and French, which I asked for. If you are interested in more info about learning from him, message me.
@Wantobegm, thanks for the link. I left my comment (audio) on YouTube.
Well , since white is going to castle q-side anyway , this move-order (2.Nc3) is interesting as well.