Why are the Ruy Lopez and Sicilian always recommended? - Chess Forums - Page 2

kindaspongey

Jan 22, 2019

0

#21

Play_e5 wrote:

If you are under 2000 you should play e4 as white and french/Caro-kann/e4 as black. ...

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IM poucin

Jan 22, 2019

0

#22

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

respecthebish1

Jan 22, 2019

0

#23

1 a4 is preferred by alpha zero

Ashvapathi

Jan 22, 2019

0

#24

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

VladimirPopov1

Jan 22, 2019

0

#25

maybe for beginers

IM poucin

Jan 22, 2019

0

#26

Ashvapathi a écrit :

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

Nc6 when?

Maybe u mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nc6?

White can transpose into Ruy Lopez Steinitz with 4.Bb5, which is not horrible for black but really passive (more than Philidor).

With Nbd7, there is no pin (c6 would be the automatic move to Bb5), hence black can hold e5. While in Ruy Lopez Steinitz, black cannot hold and will be forced at some moment to take on d4. This is not the end of the world, but then white could be happy.

White could also go for an endgame with dxe5 and Qxd8, though I don't like it because not so easy to make something concrete with white.

Does black want to enter this?

Ashvapathi

Jan 22, 2019

0

#27

poucin wrote:

Ashvapathi a écrit :

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

Nc6 when?

Maybe u mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nc6?

White can transpose into Ruy Lopez Steinitz with 4.Bb5, which is not horrible for black but really passive (more than Philidor).

With Nbd7, there is no pin (c6 would be the automatic move to Bb5), hence black can hold e5. While in Ruy Lopez Steinitz, black cannot hold and will be forced at some moment to take on d4. This is not the end of the world, but then white could be happy.

White could also go for an endgame with dxe5 and Qxd8, though I don't like it because not so easy to make something concrete with white.

Does black want to enter this?

I know one black player who plays like this (rated 1550): e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 d6 d4 Bg4 Nc3 Be7. Basically, he transposes to philidor from italian.

IM poucin

Jan 22, 2019

0

#28

Play_e5 a écrit :

poucin escribió:

Ashvapathi a écrit :

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

Nc6 when?

Maybe u mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nc6?

White can transpose into Ruy Lopez Steinitz with 4.Bb5, which is not horrible for black but really passive (more than Philidor).

With Nbd7, there is no pin (c6 would be the automatic move to Bb5), hence black can hold e5. While in Ruy Lopez Steinitz, black cannot hold and will be forced at some moment to take on d4. This is not the end of the world, but then white could be happy.

White could also go for an endgame with dxe5 and Qxd8, though I don't like it because not so easy to make something concrete with white.

Does black want to enter this?

Why would you go Bb5 if d5 is simply better

It is not obvious d5 so good for white.

But ok i gave u some ideas arguiing, while u give yours with your own evaluations which are wrong. Or maybe right but then, please explain...

Ashvapathi

Jan 22, 2019

0

#29

Ashvapathi wrote:

poucin wrote:

Ashvapathi a écrit :

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

Nc6 when?

Maybe u mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nc6?

White can transpose into Ruy Lopez Steinitz with 4.Bb5, which is not horrible for black but really passive (more than Philidor).

With Nbd7, there is no pin (c6 would be the automatic move to Bb5), hence black can hold e5. While in Ruy Lopez Steinitz, black cannot hold and will be forced at some moment to take on d4. This is not the end of the world, but then white could be happy.

White could also go for an endgame with dxe5 and Qxd8, though I don't like it because not so easy to make something concrete with white.

Does black want to enter this?

I know one black player who plays like this (rated 1550): e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 d6 d4 Bg4 Nc3 Be7. Basically, he transposes to philidor from italian.

IM poucin,

is there any obvious way to punish the above setup? wat is wrong with Nc6 in this type of philidor?

IM poucin

Jan 22, 2019

0

#30

Answering #40 =>

Just have a look at this :

https://www.chess.com/article/view/openings-for-tactical-players-the-transformer

Ashvapathi

Jan 22, 2019

0

#31

poucin wrote:

Answering #40 =>

Just have a look at this :

https://www.chess.com/article/view/openings-for-tactical-players-the-transformer

Thanks. wow! so, it is a pretty respectable defense. And very little theory. woah!

benonidoni

Jan 22, 2019

0

#32

iiivyzhang wrote:

I always read and see people suggest the Ruy and Sicilian to beginners to stick with but I'm not sure why. I'm looking to improve and if they really are the most beneficial to my learning, I'm willing to learn and play them to get better. Thanks!

I've been frustrated to see a lack of Sicilian openings at the top level. Its always the Ruy Lopez

PolarPhoenix

Jan 22, 2019

0

#33

Ashvapathi wrote:

poucin wrote:

Ashvapathi a écrit :

poucin wrote:

Play_e5 a écrit :

MathsMaths0 escribió:

Play_e5 wrote:

bong711 escribió:

Beginners are advised to play 4 knights game. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6. Black should avoid the passive Philidor defense. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6.

This is not how you play the Philidor.

That is the philidor defense though.

It is but from a bad move order. Why would you allow a good d4 thrust so soon?

If black wants to obtain this position :

Ok the good move order is this one :

I gave the lines where other move orders can be used by white to play differently and get advantage.

But Philidor can also be played with exd4, which is a reliable choice.

However, it would be difficult to teach this to a beginner or low-rated player : Antoshin variation asks some skills (white has many sets up and u have to adapt).

And anyway, Philidor (played properly) can lead to cramped positions, not really the kind of play u want to show to players at this level...

Nc6 in philidor is considered a mistake. But, I don't understand why? is there any immediate way for white to punish Nc6 in philidor setup?

Nc6 when?

Maybe u mean 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nc6?

White can transpose into Ruy Lopez Steinitz with 4.Bb5, which is not horrible for black but really passive (more than Philidor).

With Nbd7, there is no pin (c6 would be the automatic move to Bb5), hence black can hold e5. While in Ruy Lopez Steinitz, black cannot hold and will be forced at some moment to take on d4. This is not the end of the world, but then white could be happy.

White could also go for an endgame with dxe5 and Qxd8, though I don't like it because not so easy to make something concrete with white.

Does black want to enter this?

I know one black player who plays like this (rated 1550): e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 d6 d4 Bg4 Nc3 Be7. Basically, he transposes to philidor from italian.

IM poucin,

is there any obvious way to punish the above setup? wat is wrong with Nc6 in this type of philidor?

I think that ...d4 can kick around the knight after Nc6

kindaspongey

Jan 24, 2019

0

#34

Play_e5 wrote:

… With Bb5 you are just giving equality as black can just trade minors:

[1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nc6 4. Bb5 exd4 5. Nxd4 (5. Qxd4 Bd7 Giving up the bishop pair? 6. Bxc6 Bxc6) 5... Bd7 6. Bf4 Nf6 Black can trade whenever he wants as white didn't play for an advantage on the opening]

Nunn's Chess Openings (1999) indicates that "White is slightly better" after

Ashvapathi

Jan 24, 2019

0

#35

Play_e5 wrote:

hartofgoldrubinstein escribió:

Play_e5, No, closing the position with d5 gives you a worse version of a normal King's Indian. Weak chess engines in the late 2000s suggested your plan. I can see you're clearly a weak chess player who doesn't even know what the theory is. You are aware that 90% of GM games continue exactly how the IM suggested they should be played with Bb5? It's so weird how you random guys have these bizarre conspiracy theories and don't have enough positional understanding to understand why main lines are main lines and what constitutes a += pawn structure

You have 'here to learn' in your profile and damn you have things to learn as your understanding of such a position is very weak. The engine says my move is better at depth 41.

how do u go about from that final position? what is the White's plan?

IM poucin

Jan 24, 2019

0

#36

I guess Play-e5 would go into this kind of bad game :

Sure white's play was cooperative.

Ashvapathi

Jan 24, 2019

0

#37

wow. That was cool sac.

IM poucin

Jan 24, 2019

0

#38

Play_e5 a écrit :

poucin escribió:

I guess Play-e5 would go into this kind of bad game :

Sure white's play was cooperative.

Black outplayed white in that game but what is your argument? Do you I have to show a game of white wining in the Old Steinitz Ruy to be right now? In this game white lost a tempo by playing e3 then e4 also white underestimated black's attack, it has nothing to do with the opening.

Every time i gave arguments, u didnt read/listen and continue your own thinking (based on engine's evaluation and your knowledge which seems limited).

So i won't give argumentation any more for u, no need to lose time for that because useless.

U should listen and try to understand what other tell, instead of staying blocked with your certitudes.

VladimirPopov1

Jan 26, 2019

0

#39

to learn how to defeat

kindaspongey

Jan 26, 2019

0

#40

kindaspongey wrote:

"Alekhine advised beginners not to play the Spanish game. We also recommend you get some experience first by playing relatively simple openings - the Scotch and Italian games - and only then move on to the Spanish one." - Journey to the Chess Kingdom by Yuri Averbakh and Mikhail Beilin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^