why is the Italian opening labeled a beginner opening?

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Avatar of Tals-pet-rabid-chipmunk
Is it inferior to the ruy Lopez? Do modern professional players use it? Also, same questions for the Evans gambit
Avatar of JSLigon

Weak players who don't have the strength to slide the bishop all the way to b5 play the Italian. They might be children, or very old, or weak. Or lazy. Sometimes people are just lazy. Modern professionals might play the Italian but they're being ironic, pretending to be weak and lazy old children because they are so strong. They could even push the bishop to a6 if they wanted. But they never do. That would be vulgar.

The Evans Gambit is considered in very poor taste these days. Technically it is still allowed, but how dare you. The great Larry "Melvyn" Evans passed away in 2010. It hasn't even been 10 years for crying out loud. Show some respect.

Avatar of kindaspongey

The February 2018 issue of Chess lists the top twenty openings compiled from a list of 5449 December games where both players were rated over 2400 Elo. One can not take position on this list too seriously because it is greatly influenced by how the openings are grouped. For example, all the Retis are grouped together, while English is separated into 1...c5, 1...e5, etc. Nevertheless, for what it is worth, some of the list entries are: 418 Retis, 201 King's Indians, 192 Caro-Kanns, 176 Slavs, 176 declined Queen's Gambits, 143 Nimzo-Indians, 140 Kan Sicilians, 136 1...e5 Englishes, 134 Najdorf Sicilians, 127 1...Nf6 Englishes, 117 Taimanov Sicilians, 108 Berlin Lopezes, 103 Queen's Indians, 96 1...c5 Englishes, 93 Giuoco Pianos, and 91 Pirc Defences.

Avatar of poucin

openings played by beginners can be played by world champions and top players.

That's the case for italian and queen's gambit declined.

Why beginners are playing these openings? Because they are natural.

U don't seem to know what GM play, so i will give u an advice : try to watch top players's games on tournaments online. Then u will see that italian is very popular nowadays...

Avatar of jbolden1517
Cali_boy613 wrote:
Is it inferior to the ruy Lopez? Do modern professional players use it? Also, same questions for the Evans gambit

 

Because lots of people use it to teach chess to very young children.  For something like 1/3rd of all  chess players it was their first real opening.   So while the Italian is still played at a high level, the vast majority of Italians are played at a lower level.  You can see a typical lesson you don't see the audience but they sound about 4-8 years old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7oevckYWDI

 

Avatar of pfren
JSLigon έγραψε:

The great Larry "Melvyn" Evans passed away in 2010. I

 

So what? The Evans gambit was not named after him.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Davies_Evans

 

A good friend and former student (currently a Grandmaster) played the Evans recently against Kramnik. Vlad was lucky to save the draw in that game, being one pawn down for insufficient compensation...

 

Do you think that white should be dissapointed because his cheap trick did not work completely against that beginner?

Or- what about this one?

 

Fabiano shouldn't have been very unhappy for splitting the point: He was dead lost in that game.

Avatar of Smositional
poucin wrote:

openings played by beginners can be played by world champions and top players.

That's the case for italian and queen's gambit declined.

Why beginners are playing these openings? Because they are natural.

U don't seem to know what GM play, so i will give u an advice : try to watch top players's games on tournaments online. Then u will see that italian is very popular nowadays...

I disagree. They real reason why beginners play those openings is that beginner books and beginner lessons always start with this opening to illustrate basic principles and ideas. That's why it is more likely that you will encounter such openings on lower levels.

Avatar of SmithyQ

Keep in mind that most beginners are taught the Italian for very different reasons than those GMs play it.  That is, we aren't teaching someone brand new to chess to play c3 and b4 to gain space, or to play Nd2-f1-g3.  Indeed, moving a piece twice in the opening is up there with early Queen development as the big chess sins beginners are taught not to do.

We teach them to play Nf3 and Nc3, developing pieces to their best squares in one move.  We teach them to play Bc4 and Be3 or Bg5, because Bishops need open diagonals.  We probably play Qe2 or Qd2 and then move the Rooks to the open files (or at least central files).  We might call it uninspired, but to a true beginner, these are the principles of opening play to a tee.

Saying that my first opening and the opening that Carlsen et al are playing right now are the same is stretching the truth.

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... For players with very limited experience, I recommend using openings in which the play can be clarified at an early stage, often with a degree of simplification. To accomplish this safely will take a little study, because you will have to get used to playing wiith open lines for both sides' pieces, but you can't eliminate risk entirely in the opening anyway. ... teachers all over the world suggest that inexperienced players begin with 1 e4. ... You will undoubtedly see the reply 1 ... e5 most often when playing at or near a beginner's level, ... After 2 Nf3, 2 ... Nc6 will occur in the bulk of your games. ... I recommend taking up the classical and instructive move 3 Bc4 at an early stage. Then, against 3 ... Bc5, it's thematic to try to establish the ideal centre by 4 c3 and 5 d4; after that, things can get complicated enough that you need to take a look at some theory and learn the basics; ..." - IM John Watson in a section of his 2010 book, Mastering the Chess Openings, Volume 4

Avatar of Dsmith42

The Italian is recommended for beginners because it teaches them to mobilize and activate the minor pieces and to castle quickly - all good things for players learning the game.  It is not inherently better or worse than the Ruy Lopez (Spanish), though as it is commonly taught it is perhaps a bit more passive than the Spanish.

 

As for the Evans itself, if your opponent doesn't know how Emmanuel Lasker dealt with it, then it is a good opening to play from the Italian, especially if you favor attacking play.  However, even Lasker's line isn't that bad for white, just a bit drawish.

 

Like the Ruy Lopez, there's a lot of theory in the Italian, but in order to get good use out of it, you'll have to break free from the many "quiet" lines that the Italian is known for.  The Evans is a good way to do that.  Of course, a lot of folks playing black respond to 3. Bc4 with Nf6 (Two Knights Defense) instead of Bc5, which takes the Evans out of play, so you have to be prepared for that, too.

Avatar of SeniorPatzer

Is the two knights defense simple to learn against the Italian game?  

Avatar of poucin
Smositional a écrit :
poucin wrote:

openings played by beginners can be played by world champions and top players.

That's the case for italian and queen's gambit declined.

Why beginners are playing these openings? Because they are natural.

U don't seem to know what GM play, so i will give u an advice : try to watch top players's games on tournaments online. Then u will see that italian is very popular nowadays...

I disagree. They real reason why beginners play those openings is that beginner books and beginner lessons always start with this opening to illustrate basic principles and ideas. That's why it is more likely that you will encounter such openings on lower levels.

U "disagree" telling something which almost means the same and/or is complementary to what I said.

So we can think that u disagree agreeing. Thank you for your logical point.

Avatar of pfren
SeniorPatzer έγραψε:

Is the two knights defense simple to learn against the Italian game?  

 

No. In a few llines, there is a lot of theory.

3...Bc5 is simpler, and safer. If you are reluctant to accept the Evans, then 4...Bb6 is perfectly good.

Avatar of SeniorPatzer
pfren wrote:
SeniorPatzer έγραψε:

Is the two knights defense simple to learn against the Italian game?  

 

No. In a few llines, there is a lot of theory.

3...Bc5 is simpler, and safer. If you are reluctant to accept the Evans, then 4...Bb6 is perfectly good.

 

Thanks Deirdre and IM PFren

Avatar of daxypoo
beginner for life it is then

viva
Avatar of Dsmith42

No one is a beginner for life.  You either improve or give up.  The former makes you a veteran player, the latter makes you a quitter.  Even a beginner has to play something, and the Italian is a relatively easy opening to grasp in terms of basic principles, as others here have noted.

 

Points made about the complexity of certain lines of the Two Knights Defense are spot-on, but that doesn't stop many beginners from trying it.  That's another reason you want to start with a basic, sound, and easily understood opening to start off - the opponent won't usually cooperate at the beginner level, because they don't know the "book" replies.

 

I will say that I do not think taking the classical approach is necessary for a beginner, but I will concede that it is far easier for the beginner to grasp than the hypermodern approach.  One of my club students has had very good results diving into the hypermodern school directly.  He has a great passion for the game, and that usually means a strong aptitude for learning it.

 

Of course, my local chess clubs are loaded with aggressive and unconventional players, so it may just be that we aren't very good at teaching the classical approach to begin with!

Avatar of fieldh1

Also, the Italian seems like a small step in the right direction when you realize Scholar's mate is actually weak if defended against. These people might still not be ready to give up Bc4. Then they can start to learn sound positioning.  This doesn't mean more advanced players can't use it.

Avatar of pfren
DeirdreSkye έγραψε:

 

Yes , this is a common mistake:Results.

In club level you can have good results with anything.I know a player that had(still has) good results with 1.a3.

      Is there something wrong with 1a3?No, there is nothing wrong with 1.a3.White surrenders the tempo and plays as Black with a move that might(or might not) prove useful. If there is nothing wrong in playing with Black then obviously there is nothing wrong in playing 1.a3 with white. But the problem is not the results. The problem is education. Everything in chess must be a long term plan and if you neglect classical training , if you fail to understand opening principles, then you will pay for it one way or another. 

    So "results" is the most irrelevant thing for a novice.

Another huge misconception in chess is "easy", a word we all use a lot. Nothing is easy in chess but we use that word to describe something that is easier to understood in comparison with the other options.So, Queen's gambit is anything but easy but it's easier to understand than Nimzo Indian, it's more straightforward.

    Italian is not easy.Quite the contrary.It would be easier for a novice to play KIA which is 8-10 mechanical moves that Black can do almost nothing to prevent(except blunder).In fact KIA is the recommendation of a lot low-rated players self-assigned teachers who don't really realise or understand what chess training is.And guess what , their students always have good results but they never improve.

     Novices must develop a thinking process and they must understand the "why" behind every move.So there is no "why" behind 1.a3 but there is a clear why behind "1.e4". Already from the first move novices start thinking and they have a plan.2 moves later(2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4) they learn the optimal piece development and why it is important and one move later , they learn why sometimes they must sacrifice the optimal piece development in order to acquire other advantages.

 

    In a  5 move main line and an 8 move sideline a novice can see all chess mechanism in action and he can start developing his thinking process.He can start understanding what is wrong and what is right. And when he understands all this he will be able to reject them because that is what chess is :

  You reject everything you learn in order to allow yourself to learn new things.

That doesn't mean they lose their value.Oh no , they never do.Everything a novice will learn from Italian or Ruy Lopez will be a trustworthy companion for life.He will just realise that there are more than one ways to play this beautiful and rich game.

 

Right on.

I finished a team championship and cup a couple of days ago. I met 1...e5 in the last round, and using the Ruy against a much lower rated opponent and I was lucky to win after I had more or less no advantage at all, until the opponent made a couple of serious mistakes.

A couple of days before that, I played the "Giri Experiment" (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.h3!?) which I had already tried with great success in a correspondence game against a fairly strong centaur. This time, it was OTB against an IM rated some 150 points higher than me. I got a pleasant advantage out of the opening, and somehow I managed to win the game (after several mistakes by both players under mutual time trouble).

Maybe it's time to employ it more frequantly- why not, after all? I only regret I did not play this instead of the Ruy.

Avatar of Smositional
poucin wrote:
Smositional a écrit :
poucin wrote:

openings played by beginners can be played by world champions and top players.

That's the case for italian and queen's gambit declined.

Why beginners are playing these openings? Because they are natural.

U don't seem to know what GM play, so i will give u an advice : try to watch top players's games on tournaments online. Then u will see that italian is very popular nowadays...

I disagree. They real reason why beginners play those openings is that beginner books and beginner lessons always start with this opening to illustrate basic principles and ideas. That's why it is more likely that you will encounter such openings on lower levels.

U "disagree" telling something which almost means the same and/or is complementary to what I said.

So we can think that u disagree agreeing. Thank you for your logical point.

Lol. I don't know why I wrote that I disagree. Sorry for that. I of course completely agree with you.

It's nice to see the italian game a lot in high level chess.

Avatar of Dsmith42

I agree that good results at the beginner level can be a trap, but the basic structure of a starting player's game need not be classical, and an understanding of the classical approach in its entirety is not necessary to the understanding of the hypermodern system.  My hypermodern student understands opening principles very well - he just takes a hypermodern view of them.

 

Classical players try to build a strong stable center to leverage into attacking pressure.  Hypermoderns turn it into a bloody no-man's land to apply attacking pressure across, or else destroy the foundations supporting the classical player's center.  Classical players seek control through occupation, hypermoderns seek control through pressure.  They are fundamentally different approaches.

 

Chess history has proven that extremely strong play can be established using either method - even when forsaking the other style completely.  Certainly, the very best players have found uses for both, but I think the notion that classical principles must precede hypermodern ones is at best an oversimplification.