Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ??

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SmyslovFan

Again, you're not reading what Sonas himself wrote. He actually ranked the players according to his rating system. 

Jeff Sonas really does believe that Tarrasch was better than Topalov. Yes, he bases it on performance, and yes he does say that at some point a more accurate rating system may come along, but he argued that his formulae were more accurate than Elo ratings for determining relative playing strength. 

Obviously, Kenneth Regan, FIDE, and others (including myself) disagree with Sonas.

fabelhaft

"the numbers represent the relative degree to which individuals dominated their own time, rather than making any claims about whose chess was objectively stronger"

http://en.chessbase.com/post/the-greatest-che-player-of-all-time-part-i

SteveCollyer

Flip side of course is that an argument can easily be made that modern GMs are standing on the shoulders of giants like Capablanca, Fischer & Morphy....

DiogenesDue
fabelhaft wrote:

"It apparently took Karpov and the Russian chess federation years to produce enough data to prove that at one particular moment of time, twenty years down the road when all ratings had risen, that his rating went over Fischer's high water mark by a single point"

 

You think Karpov and the Russian chess federation spent years on something like that?

If you are actually from Nauru, shouldn't you be sweeping the ocean floor for manganese nodules or something?

Elasped time.  I don't know how much actual effort could have gone into it, but if Karpov could have easily proved it when 2700chess.com first started posting their all-time highwater ratings marks, I'm sure he would have.

tactics32213

I like karpovs clean style and I do not think kasparov  would never have gotten  so good if he had not played karpov so many  times i.e. kasparov did not base his sacrifices on principles (as much) before 1984

tactics32213

also it's important to note fischer was scared of karpov and kasparov xD

TheGrobe

Citation?

TheGrobe
SteveCollyer wrote:

Flip side of course is that an argument can easily be made that modern GMs are standing on the shoulders of giants like Capablanca, Fischer & Morphy....

It's like saying Issac Newton's scientific understanding paled in comparison to Einstein's.  Hell, Einstein proved him wrong.

Murgen

Newton's Theorems are wrong? Frown

TheGrobe

They are fantastic approximations.  Relativity is better.

Calculus is still rock-solid.

tactics32213
TheGrobe wrote:
SteveCollyer wrote:

Flip side of course is that an argument can easily be made that modern GMs are standing on the shoulders of giants like Capablanca, Fischer & Morphy....

It's like saying Issac Newton's scientific understanding paled in comparison to Einstein's.  Hell, Einstein proved him wrong.

 

Einstein did not prove newton wrong he just made a differant model.

Vortex_Surfer

Fischer played a boring brand of chess that proved only effective against technically inferior players to himself.

Even in his prime I think he would have had considerable trouble with players consequently looking to create complications be it in a tactical or positional sense. In this way I think he wouldn't have fared as well against many strong players as one thinks he would. The players he did dominate in his era weren't particulary strong. The more critical ones he either didn't face that often or had even or negative scores against. 

IMO nowhere near the greatest. 

IMpatzer

I did not use to think so either but after kasparov said so many good things about fischer I went and took a real hard look at his games he may have been. But it is ironic he actually said petrosian was.the best and his favorite. But I think bobby was. I have a chess master program I use to practice on. So one day I played the gm section. First game I drew petrosian it said I was world ruler 2731 rating. So I see fischer in that list he butchers me -192 rating points. I bounch back and beat leko. Now chessmaster plays exactly like these deceased gms. Based on what I saw last summer doing this I think bobby is miles above those guys.

SmyslovFan

If you read Kasparov's books, you will get the impression that all of the world champions with the possible exception of Capa was the greatest ever. He's very complimentary to all of his predecessors.

TheGrobe
tactics32213 wrote:
TheGrobe wrote:
SteveCollyer wrote:

Flip side of course is that an argument can easily be made that modern GMs are standing on the shoulders of giants like Capablanca, Fischer & Morphy....

It's like saying Issac Newton's scientific understanding paled in comparison to Einstein's.  Hell, Einstein proved him wrong.

 

Einstein did not prove newton wrong he just made a differant model.

Newtonian physics was superceded because while it is incredibly accurate at velocities much, much lower than the speed of light, it falls apart at extremely high velocities.  Einstein's relativistic physics addresses this and works across all velocities.

Eventually relativistic physics will likely be superceded as well in order to reconcile it against inconsistencies with what happens at the quantum scale.

DjonniDerevnja

This game (and this tournament) show us that Nakamura is up here, on Fisherlevel,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK-AjbDv0O8

but Nakamura probably isnt on Magnuslevel yet, or maybe he got there now?

wtbymike

Yes!!!!!! Fischer!!!!!

CrimsonCrow

realgman wrote:

I think 

RomyGer

makes a great point, the fact is greatness is defined differently by different people. what appeals to you is how you will judge... Having looked recently at a few of Petrosians game (especially against Hort) he has a claim too, as he was so highly rated for sooooo long (I would be interested to know if he was the strongest over the longest period). and his ability to suffocate an opponent on the board, he never ever seemed in a hurry.

Capablanca as ive said earlier for me the greatest, because he didnt study, and was unbeaten for an incredibly long time, and also that he saw and lived life beyond chess...and no one saw the truth in a position as quickly as he did...

Tal the greatest attacker?

Reti the most innovative, or Nimzowitsch?

Fischer the most determined and biggest character?

RomyGers pick Lasker-The deepest most complex thinker?

Botvinnik the most disciplined?

The history of Chess is full of heroes, and for me its probably the thing I love more than the game itself, the history of those that played it...think Smyslov, a world champion and an opera singer, winning the title (after losing before) from Botvinnik, a world champion and an electrical engineer and computer scientist!!!!

The  great artist and the great engineer reach the very top in chess, at the same time...those great minds that seem so different can truly communicate on the chess board..

That always amazes me, chess crosses ALL barriers and meets in the middle; the 'center', where else.... for all who play it!

Awesome, awesome thoughts man. Very well said.

VeeDeeVee

1+2 Carlsen and Kasparov...random order

3+4 Capablanca and Fischer...random order

DarkVlader

I believe Gary Kasparov was the best.