A Chat With Karpov in 1979

Syndicated chess columnist Shelby Lyman met with World Champion Anatoly Karpov in late May shortly after Karpov finished playing in the "Man and His World" tournament in Montreal. In a relaxed, candid interview, the world champion revealed a side of his personality not many Americans have seen—that of a courteous, outgoing spokesman for all that is good in chess. -"He's very obviously confident, and a very happy person," says Lyman. "He's absolutely brimming with energy."

CL&R: When you were a young boy, did you ever dream that you would become world champion of chess? If you could no longer play chess, if chess, disappeared
from the planet, what would your new dream be?

KARPOV: In our country there is a saying: "Every soldier worth anything dreams to become a general." I could not imagine that I would become world champion at such an early. age—at 23 years. The first milestone for me was when I became a grandmaster. That was a great moment. Then I thought I might become world champion. I can't imagine there being no chess. I have no other dream than to play chess.

CL&R: Do you think Bobby Fischer's abstention from competitive chess has hurt his playing strength?

KARPOV: I think that a chess player must remember that even if he does not wish to perform for other people, he must still play chess to maintain his sporting form. The three world champions before me—Tigran Petrosian, Boris Spassky, and Fischer—were wrong not to play more often in international competition. Their competitive strength was, I think, retarded by not playing. I personally like very much to play frequently. It is hard to estimate Fischer's playing strength at this time. He has not played for seven years. But his strength must be at a lower level than it was in 1972.

CL&R: What are his characteristics as a player?

KARPOV: Fischer had remarkable results before he became world champion. But his play was not as outstanding as his results. Of course, he was far superior to Taimanov, whom he beat 6—0. But Larsen, who was much more his equal in ability, made very bad mistakes in their games. Spassky also made very many blunders, as in Game 14. Terrible'. Terrible'! Fischer's strength is that he makes few very weak moves. He is a very practical player who knows chess theory extremely well. It is hard to surprise him. He also plays very quickly.

CL&R: You and Fischer have met a number of times but have not been able to agree to terms for a match. Aren't you fearful of losing your title to him if you should finally play?

KARPOV: No. I am not in the least afraid. If I were not confident of my strength, I would not want to play him. It would be silly.

CL&R: It is apparent that you place a high value on chess. Why should people play chess?

KARPOV: I think chess is very important. It builds character, especially in young people. In chess, you learn to make your own decisions without help from others. This is very important in life. Very often, young people lack this ability The logic of chess is similar to the logic of life. It teaches one to think effectively.

CL&R: Americans often find it hard to understand why, in most parts of the world, chess is considered a sport. In your own country where there are so many fine athletes, Anatoly Karpov, a chessplayer, was selected as the top sportsman of the year in 1978. And Maya Chiburdanitze, the 17-year-old World Women's Champion, placed among the top ten in the same poll. Why must chess be regarded as a sport?

KARPOV: As a matter of record, I have placed in the top ten list of sportsmen every year since 1971. And in 1974, as well as in 1978, I ranked first. I made the list even in 1976, the Olympic year when twenty Soviet athletes were gold medalists. This shows how popular chess is in our country. Chess is for me a science, an art, and a sport all together. You cannot play chess if you do not study. But if you are not in good physical condition, you also cannot play effectively. It is then very difficult to keep your concentration every minute. Enormous energy is used in playing chess. Perhaps you are familiar with the Temple University study, in which the physical condition of chess players during intense competition was monitored. The galvanic skin response, respiration and heart rates were comparable to those found in other sports. In terms of energy used, a chess game was found to equal several rounds of boxing. During my two matches with (Victor) Korchnoi, incidentally, I suffered heavy weight losses.

CL&R: Your profession has taken you to many countries. Do you like to travel? What are your impressions of the U.S.?

KARPOV: I like, to travel. Last year, especially, I travelled very much. During tournaments it is difficult to find time for other things than chess. One is so busy either playing or preparing to play. Ordinarily, I like to visit museums, attend concerts and the theater, or watch sporting events. Paris is probably my favorite city. But I find New York very interesting. It makes a powerful impression. When I first visited Manhattan, I was stunned by the massive presence of its structures. I always enjoy myself very much when I go there. I like Americans very much. They are very friendly. I have never experienced unfriendliness in your country. Even when Americans don't know you, they speak to you like they have known you for years.

CL&R: Do you think it is realistic to think that chess can contribute to better relations between our two countries?

KARPOV: Yes, I am certain of it. Chess players the world over belong to one family. Wherever I meet chess players, they are very friendly. The motto of the World Chess Federation is "Gens Una Sumus" (We are one people). In no other sport do sportsmen know each other as well as in chess. Now there is much interest in chess. Chess has been growing very rapidly during the 70's. Over 170 countries now have national chess federations. More than 100 are members of the
world federation. Others are rapidly joining. Playing chess is very prestigious for a country. For developing nations, it is a way to join the world community.

CL&R: Is it true that you have become a kind of chess ambassador, that you spend much time promoting chess both inside and outside your own country through appearances, exhibitions, etc.?

KARPOV: I think it's the obligation of every top player to promote chess. Simultaneous exhibitions, in which experts play many amateurs at once, are very useful for this purpose. During such an event, a special unity is created between the chess master and his opponents, who become much harder to beat- than they would in a one-on-one confrontation. The odds are equalized. The amateur has a chance to win. The master acquires respect for the ordinary player under these conditions. In no other sport is there such a device for unifying weak and strong players. Of course, I am very interested in promoting chess. It is the world champion's responsibility to be a leader in every way.

CL&R: What impression do American women make on you, a young man of only 28 years?

KARPOV: American women are different. Mostly, they are very beautiful. I like them!

CL&R: Would you like to see more women play chess? What is happening in women's chess in your country? Why does Soviet Georgia produce the best women players in the world?

KARPOV: Yes. Then chess will be more interesting. A step forward was taken recently when Nona Gaprindasvili—who held the. world women's title for sixteen years until she lost it last year to 17-yearold Maya Chiburdanitze—became the first woman to achieve the title of International Grandmaster. Both women, of course, are from Tbilisi, Georgia. In recent years, we have developed many talented women players in the USSR, especially in the Republic of Georgia. It is
hard to explain why Georgian women play chess so well. I am not sure—perhaps because they have an outstanding leader in Nona Gaprindasvili. For many years, she has been much admired in Georgia. Her popularity has caused many young women to try and follow her example. In Georgia today, the young girls play as well as the young boys. Women's chess there has been successful both qualitatively and quantitatively. Of course, it is curious that in Georgia, till now, there have not been many strong grandmasters among the men. In general, the potential of women chess players is good. But for them to close the gap, it is necessary that they participate in large numbers like the men.

CL&R: There seems to be more money in chess these days. The recent "Man and His World Challenge Cup" tournament in Montreal, in which you shared first place with ex-world champion Michael Tal, had prize money totaling $ 110,000. What effect does such money have on the players?

KARPOV: In the past, matches (of only two players) have received the most attention and the big money. Tournaments were not considered as important, although the Piatigorsky tournaments of 1963 and 1966 in Santa Monica, Calif., were exceptions. In Montreal, it was very important that each of the twelve competing grandmasters was ensured a decent prize. The player who finished last thus received $4,000. Therefore, losing did not mean, as it usually does, being out of the money. The result was that there were fewer draws than usual. The quality of the games was outstanding.

CL&R: Do you think it's true that someday computers will play chess better than humans? How would you feel if that happened? Would human competitions lose their significance?

KARPOV: No, I do not agree with that prediction. When Botvinnik lost his (world championship) title in 1963, he said he could create a program of at least grandmaster strength, maybe of world championship caliber. Now, sixteen years have passed. He has worked very hard, but he has not shown very much. Computers could of course be helpful to human players. They can, in particular, be of use in analyzing endgames.

CL&R: But how would you feel if they did, in fact, play better than you?

KARPOV: I refuse to discuss such a possibility. I would not like it.

CL&R: Is it true that you gave your $350,000 winnings from your victory over Korchnoi in the Philippines to the Soviet Federation of Sports?

KARPOV: Yes, it is true, The money is being used to refurbish the Moscow Central Chess Club, which by Russian standards is poor. Although compared to chess clubs here in New York, for example, it is large and perhaps outstanding, it does not meet our much more substantial requirements. We have at least 4 million registered players in the USSR. There is a need, therefore, for elaborate facilities, with tournament halls, training rooms, libraries, etc.

CL&R: I understand that, despite what is often thought abroad, chess is not taught as a regular school subject in the Soviet Union. But I know there have been some experimental uses of it. Does chess improve general mental function?

KARPOV: Chess has been introduced into a number of schools experimentally. Although I have not seen a precise description of the results, I know that the results have been favorable. Children who have studied chess in school have shown significant improvement in their other school subjects.

CL&R: Your match with Victor Korchnoi last summer was very bitter. Is that characteristic of important matches?

KARPOV: No, it was very unusual.

CL&R: How did you recover yourself to win the last game in a sudden-death situation after losing three out of the four previous games?

KARPOV: I don't know exactly. When I was leading by 5 —2, I felt prematurely that the match was over—the same feeling I had in the 1974 match with Korchnoi with a similar result. I became overconfident. Of course, that was a very dangerous feeling to have. Under such conditions, one lowers one's guard. Korchnoi, as is well-known, flourishes in such situations. He is a strong fighter. That is his forte. In three of the games I played with that attitude, I performed very stupidly. Finally, in the last game, I pulled myself together. I wanted very much to win.

CL&R: Since the match, it has been reported that the USSR Chess Federation is boycotting Korchnoi. Because of that boycott, he has been unable to play in the best and strongest tournaments. Can you explain this policy?

KARPOV: There is no official boycott by our federation. No such decision, to my knowledge, has been taken. Though I am a member of the committee that would make such a decision, the notion that there was a boycott surprised me when I first heard it. But personally, I do not have to play in tournaments with Korchnoi. He tries to exploit chess for his own purposes. Chess players should be friendly. But Korchnoi creates antagonism when he plays chess. He doesn't like anyone. He acts very unsportsmanlike. I would consider playing in tournaments with him again only if his behavior changed first.

CL&R: While you were playing in Montreal, 15-year-old Gary Kasparov, of Baku, Azerbaijan, had a remarkable performance in his first international tournament in Banja Luka, Yugoslavia. He finished far ahead of several of the world's leading grandmasters—2½ points ahead of ex-World Champion Tigran Petrosian, for example. Some observers say he is better than Fischer was at the same age. What do you think of his prospects?

KARPOV: I have not yet seen his games from the Banja Luka tournament. But it is obvious that his result was extraordinary—possibly almost impossible to repeat. He has very good talent and plays especially well, considering his age.

CL&R: Are you changing your style? In particular, have you been influenced by your recent close association with the great attacking genius Michael Tal, who acted as your second in the Philippines?

KARPOV: Yes, probably. For instance, in my game with the Danish Grandmaster Bent Larsen in Montreal, I was influenced not only by Tal but by Zaitsev, a grandmaster with a reputation for fantastic moves. In an interview I gave two or three years ago, I said that I did not have a definite style. I would like always to continue changing my style. Otherwise, my opponents can study my games and find a key to beating me.

CL&R: It is widely known that you have agreed to play a one-game exhibition match with ex-U.S. Champion Walter Browne for a fee of $50,000. Why did you agree to such an unusual proposition?

KARPOV: The match with Browne will be useful in promoting chess. It could make a good TV spectacle. One game is more practical and in a way more exciting than twenty-four or thirty-two games. I think playing Browne under those conditions will be enjoyable for the players and chess fans.

1964

As I recall Botvonnik was an electrical engineer. It's not a surprise he understood computers will eventually play chess better than humans at a time when other leading players did not. I remember Kasparov, I think in the 80s, sharing Karpov's view here i.e. that computers will never play better than humans.

Thanks Batgirl for the great article. Karpov received some bad press at times but he is a real gentleman.

Botvinnik was into AI back in the 1950s.  As I understand it (and this is way over my head) Botvinnik's approach was to try to make computers think in human terms.  Number crunching won out.  However, maybe this AlphaZero is a vindication of sorts.

thank you

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. AI, at it's core, was not so interested in the number crunching that computer chess became.

Interestingly (to me) the concept and maths of machine learning (which is what powers AlphaZero) was also known in the 50s or 60s. I believe Alan Turing came up with it (or aided in creating it). It's just back then they didn't have the hardware to implement it.

Thanks, Sarah, for an amazing article!

Thank you very much, Sarah! Great interview

Really good article.

As I recall Botvonnik was an electrical engineer. It's not a surprise he understood computers will eventually play chess better than humans at a time when other leading players did not. I remember Kasparov, I think in the 80s, sharing Karpov's view here i.e. that computers will never play better than humans.

World champion and electrical engineer on the side... what a life

Karpov was (and is) so intelligent and eloquent. One of the greatest chess ambassadors

Yeah, could you imagine a Fischer-Korchnoi match?  The 1978 match might have been even worse than it was.

In the '78 match, Karpov was backed by the state and seen as a "model citizen" while Korchnoi was a defector who was seen as "disloyal". So the tension was between two players and two systems, one being Soviet and one being non-Soviet.

In that sense, while it would be interesting, I don't think a Fischer-Korchnoi match would have the same theatrics simply because both of them would be viewed through the Soviet lens as "western capitalist" competitors.

Fun interview! Batgirl is, as usual, providing historical content like no one else.

Karpov's KGB codename was "Raul."

"Codename: Raul - Karpov of the KGB" - Chess Forums - General Chess Discussion

Always a pleasure reading these "older" articles, thanks for posting them.

Nice interview. Thanks!