Blitz rule to stop time wins in drawn position

Sort:
EndgameEnthusiast2357

I have noticed however that the "checkmate being possible in anyway" is not foolproof on this site either:

I got a draw out of something like this playing white when my time ran out (I was actually winning by a couple rooks but just started making random moves to save time, I played slow and screwed up later blundering both rooks, but technically black can mate white, if I move my king to a similar position to the puzzle I posted earlier in this page, trying to defend my pawn. I think the rule the sight implements is that if the side who still has time doesn't have sufficient material if white just had the lone king, it counts as a draw even if white doesn't just have a lone king. But I am not against amending this to allowing a virtual arbiter every 25 or 50 games where you can appeal your time loss.

EndgameEnthusiast2357

I agree the rule should be absolute, but the flip side irony is that the site does not declare some drawn positions a draw, not just "drawish", but DRAWN:

This position is DRAWN, but the site declares who ever ran out of time to have lost. When you no longer have an obligation to make legal moves, the amount of time left is irrelevant as the game is already over.

Martin_Stahl
EndgameStudier wrote:

I have noticed however that the "checkmate being possible in anyway" is not foolproof on this site either:

....

 

The site doesn't use that implementation; it's all about the material the side with time has, regardless of anything else. It's possible that they've implemented some forced mate checks by now, to head off some possible methods to get a win by just letting time run out, but I don't recall seeing anything anywhere stating that has been done.

Martin_Stahl
EndgameStudier wrote:

I agree the rule should be absolute, but the flip side irony is that the site does not declare some drawn positions a draw, not just "drawish", but DRAWN:

This position is DRAWN, but the site declares who ever ran out of time to have lost. When you no longer have an obligation to make legal moves, the amount of time left is irrelevant as the game is already over.

 

I'm going to guess coding a solution to locked positions is non-trivial.

 

Having a position that is impossible for either side to blunder it away is likely a vanishingly small number of games, though there probably are a much larger number lost to time where the kings have more ability to move but similar to above (opposite color bishops and protected/blocked pawns. Something like that is easy for a human to quickly gauge is completely drawn, as long as one side doesn't move away from protecting a blockading pawn; likely not as simple for an algorithm.

Arisktotle

FIDE has no article 10.2 on quickplay finishes, only guidelines on quickplay finishes which are advisory in nature. Interestingly their importance rates below the competition rules and below all appendices. I wonder if any arbiter ever arrived at that section in the handbook, let alone that he would know what to do next. After all what's the legal status of a guideline?

Arisktotle
Martin_Stahl wrote:
EndgameStudier wrote:

I have noticed however that the "checkmate being possible in anyway" is not foolproof on this site either: ..................

The site doesn't use that implementation; it's all about the material the side with time has, regardless of anything else .....

The only reason that chess.com - and probably no site - currently implements this rule is because it can't. Detecting dead positions is not trivial and requires reliance on heuristic methods which are inherently imperfect. Though one might eventually get to 99.9999% correct decisions with some clever algorithms. A major barrier is that the algorithms must be fast as they must be run at every move turn.

Martin_Stahl
Arisktotle wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
EndgameStudier wrote:

I have noticed however that the "checkmate being possible in anyway" is not foolproof on this site either: ..................

The site doesn't use that implementation; it's all about the material the side with time has, regardless of anything else .....

The only reason that chess.com - and probably no site - currently implements this rule is because it can't. Detecting dead positions is not trivial and requires reliance on heuristic methods which are inherently imperfect. Though one might eventually get to 99.9999% correct decisions with some clever algorithms. A major barrier is that the algorithms must be fast as they must be run at every move turn.

Which is what I was getting at with my comment. Though the speed issue could be mitigated by only running it during a loss on time, to see if the position should have been drawn by the algorithm.

EndgameEnthusiast2357

Pawns on a linear file alternating locked configuration on the same rank, any rank, that compressed algorithm would take care of the pawns:

Bishops could then be programmed to be recognized when they are on the same color value as the pawns are for each side. Kings also have to be "behind" their respective 4th rank in all position. Here's a complicated "dead position" that the 50 move rule would not be helpful because there are captures and pawn moves that accomplish nothing:

 

 

 

ATV-STEVE

K+p v K where the pawn is a rook pawn and the defending K is ahead of the pawn

is a deadset draw. Yet the person leading win frantically.move the king till flag fall.

Pathetic,undignified and against the spirit of the game.

EndgameEnthusiast2357
ATV-STEVE wrote:

K+p v K where the pawn is a rook pawn and the defending K is ahead of the pawn

is a deadset draw. Yet the person leading win frantically.move the king till flag fall.

Pathetic,undignified and against the spirit of the game.

Which king? If the time that still has time has no material left on the board, the game is declared a draw in all but a few cases.

Calamity_Destroyer

well thats how it works

ATV-STEVE
EndgameStudier wrote:
ATV-STEVE wrote:

K+p v K where the pawn is a rook pawn and the defending K is ahead of the pawn

is a deadset draw. Yet the person leading win frantically.move the king till flag fall.

Pathetic,undignified and against the spirit of the game.

Which king? If the time that still has time has no material left on the board, the game is declared a draw in all but a few cases.

oBVIOUSLY the guy with the pawn the other of course claims a draw..

EndgameEnthusiast2357

Then what's the problem?

IHaveTHEChessSkill

I flagged someone ez in a draw ending

sndeww
IRON_MATTDEN wrote:
Well, I want to play 5 min blitz and not lose in obviously drawn positions solely because my opponent is set on winning by making really fast nonsense moves.

I don’t think that is asking too much.

I see it more like a glitch that some people exploit. It’s not really part of the game.

glitches and exploits are all part of any game. Example: In Minecraft, you're supposed to get diamonds before going to the nether, but all you really need is a lava pool and plenty of water.

IHaveTheSauce
SNUDOO wrote:
IRON_MATTDEN wrote:
Well, I want to play 5 min blitz and not lose in obviously drawn positions solely because my opponent is set on winning by making really fast nonsense moves.

I don’t think that is asking too much.

I see it more like a glitch that some people exploit. It’s not really part of the game.

glitches and exploits are all part of any game. Example: In Minecraft, you're supposed to get diamonds before going to the nether, but all you really need is a lava pool and plenty of water.

ok but how is flagging a glitch or an exploit. It's part of the game, so shut up, you're clogging my notifications with whining

sndeww

what I'm not whining, its not my fault you follow like every forum lol

IHaveTHEChessSkill

IHaveTheSauce copied my user -_-coronavirus is better to have

IHaveTheSauce
SNUDOO wrote:

what I'm not whining, its not my fault you follow like every forum lol

I wasn't talking to you i was talking to the other guy

sndeww

oh.