CMNiemann banned for “Abuse”

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Martin_Stahl
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah, but since your system is fully automated - a typo of ad-hoc leads to automated bans. You can't have a strong filtration mechanism in place that's also coupled with a strong auto-ban mechanism at scale, that doesn't work. Either the filtration system needs to be lax (i.e. not flagging for a typo of ad-hoc), or the consequences need to be either relaxed, or capped at the very least.

Infact, considering the word filtration system prevents the post from going up I don't really see the point of banning based on number times a flagged post is submitted. The post never sees human eyes. I'm not aware of any other sites content moderation system which works that way. 
Bans should be reserved for people who misbehave in some way that impacts the forum.

The auto-mod doesn't ban, just mutes and it's a temporary mute, though the length increases the more often you get muted.

crazedrat1000
Martin_Stahl wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah, but since your system is fully automated - a typo of ad-hoc leads to automated bans. You can't have a strong filtration mechanism in place that's also coupled with a strong auto-ban mechanism at scale, that doesn't work. Either the filtration system needs to be lax (i.e. not flagging for a typo of ad-hoc), or the consequences need to be either relaxed, or capped at the very least.

Infact, considering the word filtration system prevents the post from going up I don't really see the point of banning based on number times a flagged post is submitted. The post never sees human eyes. I'm not aware of any other sites content moderation system which works that way. 
Bans should be reserved for people who misbehave in some way that impacts the forum.

The auto-mod doesn't ban, just mutes and it's a temporary mute, though the length increases the more often you get muted.

And what does that achieve when the post a) didn't even get seen by humans, b) could easily have been your faulty system detecting a word like ad-hoc as an infraction....? 
It's not a good system. I'm an engineer, your site can and should do better.

Martin_Stahl
crazedrat1000 wrote:

And what does that achieve when the post a) didn't even see humans, b) could easily have been your faulty system detecting a word like ad-hoc as an infraction....? 
It's not a good system. I'm an engineer, your site can and should do better.

It can help prevent bad content from being seen. It also didn't mistake ad hoc for something else; it was typed incorrectly and due to that matched something on the filter. The mute only happens after multiple attempts to post the same content or if the filter triggers multiple times on the same content. There is a warning and the idea of a mute is to limit members from keep trying to post variations of bad content to pass the filter.

Yes, it's not the best system but it's better than letting everything go to get cleaned up only after being reported. My understanding is work is being don to make the filters more context aware but any solution is likely to have some false positives in any case.

crazedrat1000
Martin_Stahl wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

And what does that achieve when the post a) didn't even see humans, b) could easily have been your faulty system detecting a word like ad-hoc as an infraction....? 
It's not a good system. I'm an engineer, your site can and should do better.

It can help prevent bad content from being seen. It also didn't mistake ad hoc for something else; it was typed incorrectly and due to that matched something on the filter.

Yes, it's not the best system but it's better than letting everything go to get cleaned up only after being reported. My understanding is work is being don to make the filters more context aware but any solution is likely to have some false positives in any case.

It's a bad and very lazy argument since at scale people will inevitably make typos, however it does excuse you from having to do anything, or even having to talk to someone else about potentially doing something.

Honestly your site is quite large / is valued at almost a billion $ / it's purely an online platform, it's actually absurd that this system was approved for production. You're referencing slow sophisticated fixed - what about just giving basic feedback on what the infraction was...? Where are your product managers, what are they doing - do they pay any attention? 
Because you actually wouldn't be the one to decide which features get added or updated since you obviously are just an unpaid mod / aren't qualified to make a decision like that. My question is - who is paying any attention? But it's rhetorical because I already know the answer, having worked in a large company - no one is paying any attention. Just collecting paychecks and making no real effort. 
That's why this forum works like it was coded in the early 90s, and it probably was.
When a lazy mentality like yours becomes the norm at a company it's only a matter of time before that company is overbloated / not profitable and starts having problems. It's inevitable.

Martin_Stahl

I added some additional context to my previous post.
As to what are product managers doing? As far as I'm aware they are working towards better solutions.

crazedrat1000

As far as you're aware... but that's just a guess and you won't be finding out, because... no one is going to make you, or ask...

You're an unpaid mod right? So why are you even representing chess.com on this matter. You don't care enough to make any effort, obviously. And I don't really expect you to, because you're unpaid. Where do people make legitimate constructive criticism of chess.com where someone might actually hear it? Because it's obviously not with you. Is there some kind of email setup where people can message product regarding buggy features or lackluster experience?

TheeMafioso
RoadToGM89 wrote:

Hey everyone,
I noticed something pretty weird today, and I can’t stop thinking about it. CMNiemann, a titled and respected player in the community, has been *magically* banned for "Abuse." Now, I know what you’re thinking: "Oh, another banned account, big deal." But hear me out because this smells fishier than a week-old tuna sandwich.

Yesterday, CMNiemann dropped some *serious* info about certain moderators. A lot of you responded positively, saying you knew him and that what he was saying was true. And now? Poof! Not only is his account gone (which, okay, fine, it happens), but his entire post has disappeared too. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it *super* unusual for a banned account’s forum posts to just vanish? I’ve seen plenty of banned users whose forum pages are still up for everyone to see. So why is CMNiemann’s post gone? Almost like someone *really* didn’t want people to see it…

And let’s talk about the "Abuse" reason. Really? Abuse? From what I saw, CMNiemann didn’t break any rules or go against the ToS. He just shared some… let’s call it *enlightening* information about certain moderators. Coincidentally, some of these mods apparently had some *funny business* going on. Like, did you know some of them created their accounts just days before becoming moderators? I did some digging, and it turns out CMNiemann wasn’t exactly wrong about that. But hey, what do I know? I’m just a humble chess enthusiast who’s starting to feel like this whole thing is a little too convenient.

So, let’s recap:
1. A respected player exposes some shady stuff about mods.
2. His post gets a ton of positive feedback from the community.
3. Suddenly, he’s banned for "Abuse," and his post is wiped from existence.
4. Some of the mods he mentioned *do* seem to have questionable backgrounds.

Am I the only one who thinks this reeks of a cover-up? Like, are we just supposed to pretend this never happened? I’m not saying there’s a conspiracy, but… okay, I’m totally saying there’s a conspiracy.

Anyway, I’m just here to share my thoughts and see if anyone else feels the same way. Maybe I’m overreacting, or maybe there’s something seriously wrong here. Either way, I’d love to hear your opinions. And if any mods are reading this… no hard feelings, but maybe address this instead of sweeping it under the rug? Just a thought.

Note that Idiot box once tried to "expose" a mod by using fake information. It was clear to see that the photo was photo-shopped/created by AI. We don't know if the "proof" that Niemann found is true or not. Unless actual proof is rendered and shown, everyone is obviously going to doubt it, just leading to an argument between people. Because it's just going to lead to arguments, I would say that the moderators are in the right in this situation.

crazedrat1000

Btw there's a very simple solution to this, it's not technically complicated: simply filter the post but stop auto-muting until your system is working, since the posts aren't seeing human eyes regardless it is of no consequence whether you're muting the person. Or... at the very least, increase the buffer a person has until they're muted. This would probably be a 1 line of code change. All it actually requires is someone caring / using their brain. It's quite obvious that chess.com is severely mismanaged atm.
Bare minimum baseline is to give feedback on what the infraction was.

Martin_Stahl
crazedrat1000 wrote:

As far as you're aware... but that's just a guess and you won't be finding out, because... no one is going to make you, or ask...

You're an unpaid mod right? So why are you even representing chess.com on this matter. You don't care enough to make any effort, obviously. And I don't really expect you to, because you're unpaid. Where do people make legitimate constructive criticism of chess.com where someone might actually hear it? Because it's obviously not with you. Is there some kind of email setup where people can message product regarding buggy features or lackluster experience?

As far as I'm aware means I had direct information from staff about plans for something like that and my understanding is that it's still actively a project, though I don't know how far along they are with the process.

Martin_Stahl

For bugs the Support option in the menu then Report a Bug or the Suggestion option

The Feedback forums are also an option

DiogenesDue

There's not a lot of point in making up what you think is happening behind the scenes and then trying to file reports based on your own imagined narratives.

RonaldJosephCote

Speaking of Covid,....I'm just posting this here because I'm too lazy to send a DM to Dio. wink In hindsight the article points out what the scientist got right about the virus,....and what they got wrong about it. https://www.yahoo.com/news/covid-broke-rules-virus-evolution-130000642.html

BigChessplayer665
Optimissed wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah there's something wrong with the word filtration system, I made a post earlier with nothing remotely controversial in it and was warned about it. I still don't even know what the warning was for. 
If you're gonna have an automated banning system it needs to work well, give good feedback, and so on. Ideally it wouldn't be fully automated, either.

You also got hit by the auto-mod on what looks like a typo of ad-hoc

Yeah, but since your system is fully automated - a typo of ad-hoc leads to automated bans. You can't have a strong filtration mechanism in place that's also coupled with a strong auto-ban mechanism at scale, that doesn't work. Either the filtration system needs to be lax (i.e. not flagging for a typo of ad-hoc), or the consequences need to be either relaxed, or capped at the very least.

Infact, considering the word filtration system prevents the post from going up I don't really see the point of banning based on number times a flagged post is submitted. The post never sees human eyes. I'm not aware of any other sites content moderation system which works that way. 
Bans should be reserved for people who misbehave in some way that impacts the forum.

Yes, it's definitely analogous to a bad-school-teacher mentality that can't stand even an appearance of disobedience.

It doesn't indicate any human-like understanding. The filtration systems are so bad, and there's so little feedback (zero) that it's quite possible for someone to correct the fault that they THOUGHT was being picked up on, only to find that for instance, nowadays the word "bottom" might be vetoed, as it is on the completely ridiculous MSN, according to my wife, so that "I'm at the bottom of the hill now" is vetoed.

That is abusive. That is, having words like that on the ban list is abusive. It's also racist, in that it expects American standards, which can be hysterical, to be enforced. American slang is entirely different from English useage. I recently got a one-day ban here from absent-mindedly referring to a young cat. That is abusive and also offensive to ME, so there are double standards at work here.

Your just salty youv been muted multiple times DESERVIDLY

Qoiuoiuoiuoiu
Optimissed wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Yeah there's something wrong with the word filtration system, I made a post earlier with nothing remotely controversial in it and was warned about it. I still don't even know what the warning was for. 
If you're gonna have an automated banning system it needs to work well, give good feedback, and so on. Ideally it wouldn't be fully automated, either.

You also got hit by the auto-mod on what looks like a typo of ad-hoc

Yeah, but since your system is fully automated - a typo of ad-hoc leads to automated bans. You can't have a strong filtration mechanism in place that's also coupled with a strong auto-ban mechanism at scale, that doesn't work. Either the filtration system needs to be lax (i.e. not flagging for a typo of ad-hoc), or the consequences need to be either relaxed, or capped at the very least.

Infact, considering the word filtration system prevents the post from going up I don't really see the point of banning based on number times a flagged post is submitted. The post never sees human eyes. I'm not aware of any other sites content moderation system which works that way. 
Bans should be reserved for people who misbehave in some way that impacts the forum.

Yes, it's definitely analogous to a bad-school-teacher mentality that can't stand even an appearance of disobedience.

It doesn't indicate any human-like understanding. The filtration systems are so bad, and there's so little feedback (zero) that it's quite possible for someone to correct the fault that they THOUGHT was being picked up on, only to find that for instance, nowadays the word "bottom" might be vetoed, as it is on the completely ridiculous MSN, according to my wife, so that "I'm at the bottom of the hill now" is vetoed.

That is abusive. That is, having words like that on the ban list is abusive. It's also racist, in that it expects American standards, which can be hysterical, to be enforced. American slang is entirely different from English useage. I recently got a one-day ban here from absent-mindedly referring to a young cat. That is abusive and also offensive to ME, so there are double standards at work here.

I think that it's fair to not allow said word, just in case. Erring on the side of no-troll is easier - after all, you could just say a cat.

crazedrat1000

Lol, I'm told I misspelled ad-hoc but I can't even imagine what the typo could have been that triggered the word filtering system. I remember typing out ad-hoc. Did I leave the C off? So it become ad-h0e without the e?

So on christmas if someone says "h0eh0eh0e" merry christmas (I darenot even type the word) they could be banned immediately, basically. And that's the best chess.com can do. When their website is their entire business.

I work for a very small company, like 4M in its net worth... we're not even primarily and IT company. But our company website is better coded than this site.

Tempetown
Qoiuoiuoiuoiu wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:

That wasn't really Hans Niemann

Seriously, Marty? Why would you assume anyone thought so?

Um OP literally called "CMNeimann" a respected and titled player so there's at least one player.

Anyway, this CMNeimann needed to go. He did nothing but spread misinformation.

OP says "CMNeimann" so you assume the person in question is GM (not CM) Hans Neimann? That is quite a leap.

magipi
Tempetown wrote:
Qoiuoiuoiuoiu wrote:
Tempetown wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:

That wasn't really Hans Niemann

Seriously, Marty? Why would you assume anyone thought so?

Um OP literally called "CMNeimann" a respected and titled player so there's at least one player.

Anyway, this CMNeimann needed to go. He did nothing but spread misinformation.

OP says "CMNeimann" so you assume the person in question is GM (not CM) Hans Neimann? That is quite a leap.

Before he was closed, he used the picture of Hans and also a description that tried to suggest that he is Hans. As those were removed, I would guess that impersonation was the main cause of the ban. On the other hand, the reason given is explicitly "abuse", so who knows.

TheMidnightExpress12

I have another screenshot of the bug

I keep seeing this bug now

Martin_Stahl
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Lol, I'm told I misspelled ad-hoc but I can't even imagine what the typo could have been that triggered the word filtering system. I remember typing out ad-hoc. Did I leave the C off? So it become ad-h0e without the e?

So on christmas if someone says "h0eh0eh0e" merry christmas (I darenot even type the word) they could be banned immediately, basically. And that's the best chess.com can do. When their website is their entire business.

I work for a very small company, like 4M in its net worth... we're not even primarily and IT company. But our company website is better coded than this site.

Again, you won't get banned and you would have to make the post multiple times, after being warned, in order to be muted.

Martin_Stahl
TheMidnightExpress12 wrote:

I have another screenshot of the bug

I keep seeing this bug now

It's a closure/re-open issue that didn't fix the flair, though it's not an issue on that member anymore.

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