Is this cheating?

An aside from the main subject, a link that shows how tricky it is.  Also look at the suggested video link that details the mate from wildcard's position above.

http://www.chessvideos.tv/king-and-rook-vs-king-and-queen.php

There are people on this site who use opening explorer for every game they play looking up moves played by masters and using the best scoring responses as their own until finally by the 14th move or so they are forced to play a unique game because their opponents reply distinguished the game from all those recorded.
And that's considered not cheating...
You were if anything honourable.

well some people are cookie cutters and have absolutely no originality at all and just try to rely on other sources to play their games for them :P  I dont even know how copyinng 14 moves from an opening would even be fun...

For this forums information, I have tried for over an hour now to triangulate a computer K+R pair with my K+Q into the zugzwang shown in the link:

http://www.chessvideos.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=844

I can't do it.. :( I'm a newb
The rook finds a way to stale or check or threaten check every time.. right when I think I have it. I want to die. Metaphorically.

lithium11, don't feel bad, many GMs have failed at it. The good news is an average opponent doesn't know the defense nearly as well as a computer so in a practical game your chances of winning (or drawing as the weaker side) if you've studied it are good. It's only when both players know what they're doing that it becomes tricky. :)

Lithium, I took a look at the video and it only explains how to mate from the 'critical position'. It doesn't explain how to get there... so you won't learn how to win Q vs R (in general) against a human or computer from watching that video.

Olimar wrote:

well some people are cookie cutters and have absolutely no originality at all and just try to rely on other sources to play their games for them :P  I dont even know how copyinng 14 moves from an opening would even be fun...

What is the virtue of eschewing the legitimate resources available to help you make the best move?

Duffer1965 wrote:

Olimar wrote:

well some people are cookie cutters and have absolutely no originality at all and just try to rely on other sources to play their games for them :P  I dont even know how copyinng 14 moves from an opening would even be fun...

What is the virtue of eschewing the legitimate resources available to help you make the best move?

Learning how to play yourself.

does it get fuzzy if you look up endings in an endgame book and suddenly find the exact position that you are in? The book may then explain how that position was won in some previous game.

Chess.com Rules: "You may NOT get any help from any person or any chess engine throughout the course of a game, including tablebases. You MAY use books, magazines, or other articles. You may also use computer databases (including Chess.com's Game Explorer)."

swestland> does it get fuzzy if you look up endings in an endgame book and suddenly find the exact position that you are in? The book may then explain how that position was won in some previous game.

It's not fuzzy... you can use an endgame book according to the rules. You can search an endgame games database for your exact position and occasionally you'll get lucky. But keep in mind... the game you find could very well be an example of the wrong way to play the endgame rather than the right way to play it.

What about situations in which say, a book I own about endgames goes through the principles, and then shows you by example how to acheive a checkmate? Would that constitute as using a book as a resource or cheating because the book essentially tells you how to win?

Chess.com Rules: "You may NOT get any help from any person or any chess engine throughout the course of a game, including tablebases. You MAY use books, magazines, or other articles. You may also use computer databases (including Chess.com's Game Explorer)."

Jeil> Would that constitute as using a book as a resource or cheating because the book essentially tells you how to win?

Which do you think describes an endgame book better?

• Cheating: A person, engine, or tablebase
• Permitted: books, magazines, other articles
  

I thought it would be obvious that a queen > rook

and it is not cheating. In a tournament, I seen someone pull out a chess book and read how to check mate with a knight and a bishop.

Jaguarphd> and it is not cheating. In a tournament, I seen someone pull out a chess book and read how to check mate with a knight and a bishop.

In a USCF event it's cheating. If his opponent made a claim to the TD he would have won on the spot despite being in a theoretically lost ending. This is why it's good to read the rulebook at least once. You pick up all sorts of points when your opponents misbehave.  :)

USCF Rule 20B Use of recorded matter prohibited: During play, players are forbidden to make use of handwritten, printed, or otherwise recorded matter... a forfeit loss is usually ruled if the material is relevant to the game...

(Of course, this has nothing to do with chess.com rules.)

Baseballfan wrote:

eternal21 wrote:

The rules should be clarified.  While I don't mind if somebody is using game explorer against me during the opening as much, using endgame tables should be considered cheating.

The rule is pretty clear, it states: "You may NOT get any help from any person or any chess engine throughout the course of a game, including tablebases. You MAY use books, magazines, or other articles. You may also use computer databases (including Chess.com's Game Explorer)."

So, using an endgame tablebase IS against the rules. But that's not what the OP was doing, he consulted a website which gave him general principles for winnng. This is not the same thing.

 Well how long should someone be allowed to use game explorer? If they are 8 or so moves into a game they should stop. I dont mind this during the first 4 or 5 moves or how ever long and complex the opening is (like some forms of the english I play are 8) but after a while they should be playing on their own. If you are slowing the game down to consult a reference and not trying to figure it out on your own, then is there not something wrong with that?

I agree with what everyone else said about the fun being in learning and playing on your own. If you are having a good time winning by using end game tables and the like then you are just having a good time winning, not from being challenged to think. It is fine if you do and I do not think less of you for it, but I would appreciate it if you did it else where.

PS: THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE COMMENTS, I respect all opinions on the subject.

wildcard, if you want no books/databases, just play members of the Circle of Trust group or agree to those terms before a game. You can't impose your own special rules like "use game explorer for 8 moves only" on other people on this site. Your other option would be to form a group and invite like-minded people to join.

likesforests wrote:

wildcard, if you want no books/databases, just play members of the Circle of Trust group or agree to those terms before a game. You can't impose your own special rules like "use game explorer for 8 moves only" on other people on this site.

 Thanks likeforests, you are right. Sorry chess.com if I was oppressing you. I return to my status of anyone, anytime, anywhere.

Provided your opponent knows that you're looking things up during the game because you are a rookie and learning I think it's okay. If you have an agreement that's fine. But I don't think anyone should be looking things up during a normal rated match. You can always get the book and study your match upon its end. Just my opinion.

I just read the post that allows you to read books, magazines, etc. during a match. I think that's wrong. Shouldn't you win or lose on upon your own merit? Is there something I'm missing? I'm a rookie myself and I've never done that during a match. I read books all the time but nothing that shows specific moves to get me out of a position I'm currently engaged.

I find consulting chess books (e.g. How do I play against an IQP?) and game databases (e.g. Why did Kasparov play that move? / What do most people play in this position?) during game play helps me learn.  If chess.com allows it (which it should), I will take advantage of this opportunity.

On the topic of endgames, chessgames.com has a nice endgame explorer in which I can find games with specific endgames.  For example, I could find games with Rook and pawn versus Bishop pair and pawn.

The great advantage of correspondence chess is that it allows time to analyze and actually read the chess books I have!

lastchance wrote:

Provided your opponent knows that you're looking things up during the game because you are a rookie and learning I think it's okay. If you have an agreement that's fine. But I don't think anyone should be looking things up during a normal rated match. You can always get the book and study your match upon its end. Just my opinion.

Well I am no rookie, but I'm still learning, I will from time to time consult any opening database on chess. com or other site, magazines, books etc.  These are the rules at this site, your opinion differs, go to another site, but I can assure you these are the rules for internet and correspondence chess worldwide.   Alternatively try to join the Circle of Trust group, mentioned earlier, who have agreed not to use any aids during games, in other words like an over the board game but with really long time limits. 

The key point is that i feel I now have an understanding of why I play the book moves, some people I know don't, and it's very obvious sometimes when they have come to the end of book moves and have no idea what to do next..........

my point is that in games on this site I studied during the games and it sunk in.  When I played over the board I might or might not be that bothered after the game to read up, and it didn't sink in.

If people don't want to use resources fine, but please lay off the well you're cheating or not playing the game stuff, it's been in a lot of threads, can't people just read the rules and try to understand them?