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Lucena Position

  • #21

    Here's something to consider:

    I often hear students complain that these endgame don't happen in their games. 

    But once they learn how to play these endgames, they start steering their games into these won positions, and suddenly the positions arise much more often! Of course, once you get to a certain level, your opponents will strive to avoid those positions. 

     

    Chess can be a complicated game. But if you know the fundamentals, you will find a bunch of easy wins that eluded you in the past.

  • #22

    The other thing to keep in mind is that it's not about how many times it happens.  It's about knowing patterns and how many times it CAN happen.  I might make one move over another in a R+4P vs R+3P ending, where I'm down the pawn, because going with Option A leads to a drawn position, but Option B gives my opponent Lucena's position.

     

    So Lucena's position doesn't have to happen for it to be important.  Just knowing it helps you prevent it happening when you are down a pawn, or may drive you to what you need to do to simply your R+4P vs R+3P down to a winning R+P vs R position!

  • #23
    ThrillerFan wrote:

    And in post 16, the analysis is faulty.

     

    1.Rd2+ does work, but not with the follow-up giving in the analysis.  After 1...Kc7, then 2.Rd4!.  Only then do you start walking out with the King!

     

    The steps are simple:

     

    1) Get the opposing King 3 files away from the pawn (minimum - more is fine)

    2) Build the Bridge by putting the Rook on the 4th rank (5th rank if you are Black).

    3) Wiggle the King out until the check by the opposing rook can be interposed by the pawn.

    4) Don't ever move the King two files away from the file the pawn is on.  If the pawn is say, an e-pawn, the White King should never be on any files except d-, e-, and f-.

    It's not faulty. It's done on purpose to show that the king alone can't win that position.

  • #24
    riuryK wrote:
    ThrillerFan wrote:

    And in post 16, the analysis is faulty.

     

    1.Rd2+ does work, but not with the follow-up giving in the analysis.  After 1...Kc7, then 2.Rd4!.  Only then do you start walking out with the King!

     

    The steps are simple:

     

    1) Get the opposing King 3 files away from the pawn (minimum - more is fine)

    2) Build the Bridge by putting the Rook on the 4th rank (5th rank if you are Black).

    3) Wiggle the King out until the check by the opposing rook can be interposed by the pawn.

    4) Don't ever move the King two files away from the file the pawn is on.  If the pawn is say, an e-pawn, the White King should never be on any files except d-, e-, and f-.

    It's not faulty. It's done on purpose to show that the king alone can't win that position.

     

    Then maybe you should learn what the bridge technique is before you identify it as such and imply that 1.Rd2+ is bad.

     

    The line you list works, but that's not the Bridge technique.  The Bridge, from your starting position, would be 1.Rd2+ Kc7 2.Rd4! Rf2 3.Ke7 Re2+ 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Ke6 Re2+ 6.Kf5 Rf2+ 7.Rf4!, which explains why the King must be 3 files away from the pawn for the Bridge to work.

  • #25

    Then you should learn to be a bit more humble. Or do we have to call the positions the way you want? There is no such "brigde" position actually. There's the Lucena position, there's the position I've shown above, and there's hundred more, some have name, some have not. Focus on the moves I've shown, and stop trying to teach people what to write. It's the second post I've seen of yours where people complaint about your arrogant replies.

  • #26
    riuryK wrote:

    Then you should learn to be a bit more humble. Or do we have to call the positions the way you want? There is no such "brigde" position actually. There's the Lucena position, there's the position I've shown above, and there's hundred more, some have name, some have not. Focus on the moves I've shown, and stop trying to teach people what to write. It's the second post I've seen of yours where people complaint about your arrogant replies.

     

    "Or do we have to call the positions the way you want?"

     

    What a freaking joke! 

    Do we call China "China" because that's what I want to call it?

    If we put lipstick on a pig, we still have a pig, no matter what we do with it!

     

    Lucena's Position involves building a Bridge.  The act of building the "Bridge" (I didn't give it its name) is to force the opposing King three squares away from the pawn, then move the Rook to the 4th rank, then move the King in a zigzag fashion, and block with the pawn once the King is on the 5th rank.

     

    To say that you are building a bridge with 1.Rh2 is incorrect!

  • #27

    The concept of building a bridge is quite simple:

    The K is in a safe place in front of the pawn on the eighth rank (using White as the side with the extra pawn). It needs a second safe place to hide from the defender's checks, relatively close to the pawn. And then, it needs a bridge from one safe place to the other. 

     

    In the Lucena position, the second safe place is created  by playing the R to the 4th rank, allowing the K to go to the 5th rank and block the ensuing checks with the Rook. It's possible to create a safe square closer to the pawn in less critical positions, but it's necessary to learn the Lucena maneuver because that, along with the Philidor position, is the most critical position for evaluating the endgame.

     

    Thrillerfan is right that the opposing K needs to be pushed away from the pawn, because if the defender is too close, when rooks are traded the P/Q may be taken if the K is too close. But that's not actually part of the bridge building process, it's protecting the pawn for AFTER the bridge has served its purpose.

  • #28

    Riurik's position in post 16 gives 1.Rh2 an exclamation mark. It's not White's best move. Thrillerfan is completely correct to state that 1.Rd2! is even better. It leads to a faster mate, and it's conceptually easier to play without going wrong. 

    The point is to learn the Lucena technique first, and if there are times when there are quicker methods, good. But at least you know what to do in the most difficult positions.

     

    In fact, Riurik demonstrates that he doesn't understand the Lucena position in his sideline analyzing Rd2:

     

  • #29
    SmyslovFan wrote:

    Riurik's position in post 16 gives 1.Rh2 an exclamation mark. It's not White's best move. Thrillerfan is completely correct to state that 1.Rd2! is even better. It leads to a faster mate, and it's conceptually easier to play without going wrong. 

    The point is to learn the Lucena technique first, and if there are times when there are quicker methods, good. But at least you know what to do in the most difficult positions.

     

    In fact, Riurik demonstrates that he doesn't understand the Lucena position in his sideline analyzing Rd2:

     

    Are you guys reading the whole thread, or just the last post? I said that I used that variation to show that the king alone without the rook cannot win (note the underline). Rh2 is the quickest way in the position I've shown.

     

    And now comes the most embarrasing part for you two: the example I showed is from GM Chris Ward's book "Starting Out: Rook Endgames". Now you can keep on talking.

     

  • #30

    What did I say that was materially wrong? 

     

    I don't have GM Ward's Rook endgame book, but I do know him. I sincerely doubt he gave the line 1.Rh2 an exclam, and I also doubt he showed the line with 2.Ke7? as White's main line. Of course, I can ask him about it. 

  • #31
    riuryK wrote:
    ... Rh2 is the quickest way in the position I've shown.

     

    And now comes the most embarrasing part for you two: the example I showed is from GM Chris Ward's book "Starting Out: Rook Endgames". Now you can keep on talking.

     

    Plug the following into the Nalimov tablebase: 5K2/3k1P2/8/8/8/8/R7/6r1 w - - 0 1

     

    Here's the link: http://www.k4it.de/index.php?lang=en&topic=egtb

    That's the position where you say 1.Rh2 is fastest. You're wrong there. 

    I know, you never admit you're wrong. But this one is clear as day.

  • #32
    SmyslovFan wrote:

    What did I say that was materially wrong? 

     

    I don't have GM Ward's Rook endgame book, but I do know him. I sincerely doubt he gave the line 1.Rh2 an exclam, and I also doubt he showed the line with 2.Ke7? as White's main line. Of course, I can ask him about it. 

    Yes, please, go ask him. In the meantime I'll copy here the full example with his comments and his evaluations, from his chapter called "Building bridge".

    (All copyrights to Mr. Chris Ward)

     

  • #33

    1. Rook checking the defender's king then going to the fourth rank. 2. King goes to the fifth rank. 3. Blocking the check by the rook.

  • #34
    Dalek wrote:
     

    Thanks for the details.

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