Any suggestions from this position?

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AngryNaartjie

I am working on my first 7 moves. Only the first 7 because everywhere I look the answers is "You are a beginner, don't worry about the opening. Just play principled move." That is easily said but ignores the anxiety we feel about those first few moves. Also, only 7 moves because, lets face it, it's unlikely I will play my fellow Noob and we will both follow any line for more than 7 moves.

With that, I am working on a reply to the Sicilian. I'm trying to play natural moves and get to a position that may not be the best, but is solid enough to let me happily blunder my way through the middle game.

I came up with this position. It seems likely to come up often, so often in fact that I reached this exact position the day after deciding to play this odd line.


My plan is to reach this position as often as I can and learn by playing. Still, any suggestions to what my strategy should be?

The priority seems to be to get my Rook on e1, my Bishop out, maybe on g5 and the maybe Knight on d2. With the pawn setup, it feels like I thought be trying to push d4 and fight for the centre before I do try anything else.

There is an odd move that the computer and the opening database keeps on showing, Bb3. What on earth is the point of that?

Toldsted

Why do you think 3.Bc4 is a natural move? To me it looks like you just want to develop you Bishop like you are used to from 1.e4 e5-openings. But you should never just develop without a plan. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 Black has lost control over d5, and 3.Bc4 is logical.

But after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 it is not the case. 3.Bc4 develops the Bishop and puts pressure on d5 together with e4. But is this pressure real? Can white in this way keep Black form playing d5 (what if Black simply plays e6 and d5 after some preparation)? A rule in Sicilian is, that if Black plays d5 he has solved all his problems. Does the Bishop do anyting important on c4?

AngryNaartjie
Toldsted wrote:

Why do you think 3.Bc4 is a natural move? To me it looks like you just want to develop you Bishop like you are used to from 1.e4 e5-openings. But you should never just develop without a plan. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 Black has lost control over d5, and 3.Bc4 is logical.

 At my current level, I really don't see/understand the finer points of positions. Bc4 is logical, to me at least, because I am developing to a piece, developing towards the centre, and covering some of the central squares. I understand that it might not be the best move, but it is simple to understand for a noob like me.

I am still working on the numbers, but I'm estimating that only about 10% of my games will be Sicilian. I am just trying to find a way to not have to avoid having to worry about lists of moves and reach the middle game without being in a losing position, then have an idea of what I could do once I read that middle game.

Now, do I understand correctly that you think taking the centre will be difficult? This position will not be easy? (Keep in mind we are talking about two sub 1000 players playing here happy.png

Liberatrix

I think that when you are a noob you have to do your best to understand the hard moves and risk it in the friendly games, so you can learn the attack as well as the defence. Trying the hard moves and failing might just help lol

Toldsted

I agree, that you should not concentrate on the Sicilian, as most of your opponents will play 1..e5. But I also think that a clever Sicilian player will punish your someshat loose 3..Bc4 with e6+d5, and that you will find this hard to meet.

Therefore I will recommend 3..Bb5 (3..Bb5+ if 2..d6), witch also is natural, delvelops and put pressure on the centre (by pinning a Knight on c6) but the Bishop won't have to leave after a Black d5.

AngryNaartjie
Toldsted wrote:

I agree, that you should not concentrate on the Sicilian, as most of your opponents will play 1..e5. But I also think that a clever Sicilian player will punish your someshat loose 3..Bc4 with e6+d5, and that you will find this hard to meet.

Therefore I will recommend 3..Bb5 (3..Bb5+ if 2..d6), witch also is natural, delvelops and put pressure on the centre (by pinning a Knight on c6) but the Bishop won't have to leave after a Black d5.

OK. I will look into that and try to get some games in with that. I still have a long way to go and lots of failure to learn from happy.png
Thanks for the advice.

AngryNaartjie
Liberatrix wrote:

I think that when you are a noob you have to do your best to understand the hard moves and risk it in the friendly games, so you can learn the attack as well as the defence. Trying the hard moves and failing might just help lol

I kind of assumed I would have to do something, see how it goes, then try something else. I was just wondering if there was something obvious in the position that I was not considering at all.

Thank for the advice though happy.png

Toldsted
AngryNaartjie skrev:

There is an odd move that the computer and the opening database keeps on showing, Bb3. What on earth is the point of that?

P.s. To answer this question: The point is, that the Bishop is not very well placed on c4 :-) On b3 a Black d5 at least does not come with a tempo. Of cource it contradicts the 'rule' that you should not move the same piece more than once in the opening. But this 'rule' is mostly concerned with quick development, and this is not that important in a closed position.

Good luck with your progress!

JamesColeman

I think even if you were given Re1, Bg5 Nbd2 and d3-d4 thrown in for free without black making a move, you still won’t really have much (if anything) after ...cxd4 cxd4 ...d5.

Read into that what you will...

jamesstack

If you are just trying to get a playable middlegame position, I would suggest 3. Bb5+ or if you want to play something different than 2. Nf3 you can play 2. Nc3.

AngryNaartjie
jamesstack wrote:

If you are just trying to get a playable middlegame position, I would suggest 3. Bb5+ or if you want to play something different than 2. Nf3 you can play 2. Nc3.

Would you suggest that Kc3 is better for a beginner, especially since I am trying to avoid learning pages of theory? I'm really trying to avoid learning more than 7 moves deep to force me to play and learn from experience.

jamesstack
AngryNaartjie wrote:
jamesstack wrote:

If you are just trying to get a playable middlegame position, I would suggest 3. Bb5+ or if you want to play something different than 2. Nf3 you can play 2. Nc3.

Would you suggest that Kc3 is better for a beginner, especially since I am trying to avoid learning pages of theory? I'm really trying to avoid learning more than 7 moves deep to force me to play and learn from experience.

2. Nc3 is called the closed sicilian and it might be what you are looking for. There is some theory but the first several moves are pretty straightfoward. The game is usually decided by whoever plays the middlegame better. White normally adopts the same set up against most things black does. pawns on d3-e4-g3, bishop on g2 and knight on c3. The development of the kingside knight is usually delayed a bit. One reason is if your plan is to play f4 and Nf3 then you need to lose a tempo if you play Nf3 first. Also, sometimes there are more useful things to do than develop that knight...like in a recent game I played when I didnt develop that knight until I was totally winning. Anyway....although there is some theory, this opening is more about playing the middlegame well than anything else. Usually whoever the better middlegame player is wins.



AngryNaartjie

I think this is the kind of this I was looking for. An opening that is not "about the opening"

Thanks for the long explanation. Much appreciated happy.png

Mark12291229
Are you fairly new to chess and want to test your skills out with other beginners? Then this is the perfect tournament for you! You can go against other lower rated players to have a chance for the win! 


Note: I will be looking for Sandbaggers, and when found they will be BANNED from the tournament.

https://www.chess.com/tournament/beginners-chess-tournament-1/join

Good Luck, Try your best, and have fun.
AngryNaartjie

I actually wanted to join, but my Daily rating is to high sad.png
Thanks for the link though.

EKAFC

Read this book

https://archive.org/details/how-to-beat-the-sicilian-defence.pdf/page/17/mode/2up

Mark12291229
How do you post live links on here?
jamesstack
AngryNaartjie wrote:

I think this is the kind of this I was looking for. An opening that is not "about the opening"

Thanks for the long explanation. Much appreciated

your welcome....glad I could help happy.png

king5minblitz119147

i think you should avoid dry positions and closed maneuvering positions more than avoiding theory. you should try to play in a way that you can develop fluidly and quickly in open positions where the opponent's mistakes can be punished violently with tactics. you don't need theory to play this way, you just need a solid grasp of basic opening principles, and a way to blunder check every single move you make.

the bc4 system you are choosing rather directs the fight to some kind of maneuvering italian game or even the lines of the spanish. you should play more directly for now. play the open sicilian and play for the center, develop rapidly, while keeping an eye on what the opponent is doing. this will guide you far beyond seven moves, and far beyond just the sicilian.