When to resign - Etiquette - An honest appeal

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JeffGreen333

Yeah, what Harthacnut said.  lol

Shark_Sigma
So now playing a game where I wished they would resign, I understand the frustration.

I had captured all their pieces except for their king and a pawn. I promoted one of my pawns to a queen, so I now had two queens and a rook, among other pieces. Up until checkmate, I had to chase them around a little and they were taking 30-40 seconds between moves despite having no chance to win, and I felt like I was wasting my time...

With that being said, I still so not think it is right to ever expect people to resign. Some people will play down to the very last move and that is 100% respectable. While I did wish they would resign, or at least move faster to get it done, they can play it however they wish (unless they start stalling, then that's rude).
matethemouse

Especially in a low ELO blitz game it makes sense to keep on going instead of resigning. Otherwise, following that logic, you should resign as soon as losing the queen since your opponent already won

Anonymous_Dragon

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Born2slaYer
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Age Factor.

Anonymous_Dragon
CongoratsUlost2me wrote:
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Age Factor.

hmm

anikolay

Look. I will keep trying to get this forum to it’s end. There’s really no point of arguing about some nonsense. I totally agree with you on the first part, that it’s more polite to resign in a losing position than to keep going, especially in classical. But there is no point of carrying on this behavior to everyone else.

Arceusadi_69
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Not discrediting you or anything but the jump from 1500 to 2000 is really hard and challenging. 1500 is the end of beginner level; and this is where the advanced level stuff begins. so you cannot equate 2000 level to 1500 in 6 months

 

Anonymous_Dragon
anikolay wrote:

Look. I will keep trying to get this forum to it’s end. There’s really no point of arguing about some nonsense. I totally agree with you on the first part, that it’s more polite to resign in a losing position than to keep going, especially in classical. But there is no point of carrying on this behavior to everyone else.

Yes but he expects the same behaviour in blitz as well

anikolay
Arceusadi_69 wrote:
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Not discrediting you or anything but the jump from 1500 to 2000 is really hard and challenging. 1500 is the end of beginner level; and this is where the advanced level stuff begins. so you cannot equate 2000 level to 1500 in 6 months

 

The hardest jump is from 1000 to 1500. idk why but for me it was

anikolay
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:
anikolay wrote:

Look. I will keep trying to get this forum to it’s end. There’s really no point of arguing about some nonsense. I totally agree with you on the first part, that it’s more polite to resign in a losing position than to keep going, especially in classical. But there is no point of carrying on this behavior to everyone else.

Yes but he expects the same behaviour in blitz as well

That’s what I call nonsense 

Arceusadi_69
anikolay wrote:
Arceusadi_69 wrote:
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

Not discrediting you or anything but the jump from 1500 to 2000 is really hard and challenging. 1500 is the end of beginner level; and this is where the advanced level stuff begins. so you cannot equate 2000 level to 1500 in 6 months

 

The hardest jump is from 1000 to 1500. idk why but for me it was

I'm sure it is basic human nature to feel the thing at hand as the hardest but in a technical sense after 1500 you need to learn all the newfound theory. Complex endgames and so much. This was told to me by my coach

PleasantEscalator
harthacnut wrote:

Having digested most of the thread I think I am piecing together what @wornaki is trying to get at. It seems that he thinks that resignation etiquette is important in OTB play and that players who spend a lot of time in blitz, etc. where such etiquette is not observed will develop bad habits which will contaminate their OTB play.
Now, I don't think that's an inherently bad point, albeit I don't think there's any evidence that that is actually happening; I would wager that most players instinctively understand that there's a difference between online blitz and OTB and adjust their approach accordingly, so it seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Still, if he had left it there, that would be one thing. He moves on to trying to encourage people to observe OTB etiquette in blitz, which under different circumstances I might call a romantic folly or a doomed noble crusade. The manner in which it's been conducted precludes that but, again, while I think it's a solution in search of a problem, if one considers that OTB is the correct way to play, taking a lead from it in order to polish up blitz is not wholly insane in itself.

 

Unfortunately there's a whole edifice constructed around this core idea which is built on such slipshod foundations and illogical reasoning that it's fundamentally unsound.

Firstly, context is key. This includes quality of player, hopelessness of position, and format of play. Context, however, is entirely ignored in wornaki's approach, and whenever challenged on this point, he ignores it and changes the subject.
Quality of player has been amply discussed, and goes hand in hand with the position itself. Not every player can finish off an advantageous position and you should only resign if you are reasonably confident that your opponent can: what constitutes a lost game will depend not only on the position but on the quality of your opponent. As demonstrated, wornaki failed to complete in the games he's complaining about, so the position was, by definition, not lost. There is an element of second-guessing in this, and assumptions do have to be made. One might say that it was disrespectful not to as it assumed wornaki would struggle. One might equally (and in my view, correctly) say that respect for one's ability has to be earned (whether during the game itself, or by way of rating) and that in this instance the opponent showed the correct amount of respect.
With regard to format, blitz is essentially what we're talking about here, and in blitz, managing the clock is as much a part of the game as making the right moves; your opponent putting you to playing extra moves to finish the game before you flag is not demonstrating any poorer etiquette than a player who's trying to checkmate you. That's the game you're playing. You can't expect a player to resign when the clock leaves them with a healthy chance any more than you can expect them to sacrifice pieces during play for no advantage.

In essence, there is no universal answer to this. It is impossible to say in isolation whether or not resignation is the right thing to do, just as it is impossible to say what the best move to make after 5 moves is. Whether resignation is appropriate will depend on the context just as the best move 6 will depend on what the first five moves were.

Finally, no one person is entitled to impose their own view of etiquette on everyone else. Etiquette is either imposed by rules, or in the absence of such rules, it's a consensus. If you find yourself out on your own, fighting a lone battle to persuade everyone that your view of etiquette is correct, you're probably the one demonstrating poor etiquette. That goes for all walks of life.

 

Overall, it seems that @wornaki considers that there is a "right" way to play chess, and playing any other way is gamesmanship. He is the sole arbiter of what this right way is. and it's the way he plays. Anyone who breaches this code (which is largely unspecified, and adjusted on an ongoing basis) is wrong. There's a name, in gaming circles, for players who approach games in this manner, and it rhymes with "grub". It's not something to aspire to.

I need to invest in a speed reading course. That was a post that took me 10 minutes to read.

PleasantEscalator

Getting to 1800 isn't hard, getting to 2000 is the real tough thing for me.

JeffGreen333
Shark_Sigma wrote:
So now playing a game where I wished they would resign, I understand the frustration.

I had captured all their pieces except for their king and a pawn. I promoted one of my pawns to a queen, so I now had two queens and a rook, among other pieces. Up until checkmate, I had to chase them around a little and they were taking 30-40 seconds between moves despite having no chance to win, and I felt like I was wasting my time...

With that being said, I still so not think it is right to ever expect people to resign. Some people will play down to the very last move and that is 100% respectable. While I did wish they would resign, or at least move faster to get it done, they can play it however they wish (unless they start stalling, then that's rude).

Something just occurred to me, while reading this comment.   It sounds to me like your opponent played it out, hoping for you to lose your internet connection, so that he would win on time.   Why else would he play out such an obviously lost game?   This conundrum only applies to online games though .... not OTB.   I wonder if Wornacki thought of that.   He could have made a stronger case for himself.

JeffGreen333
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

I learned how to play chess 48 years ago, at the age of 9.  I didn't start studying the game until I was in my 20's though.  By then, it's usually too late to get to 2000, due to the age factor and work, family, etc. taking up most of your time.   Back in my day, we didn't have free Tactics Trainers and Puzzle Rush to improve our tactics or free online chess lessons where we could learn middlegame positions arising from certain openings.   All we had was books and magazines, which were expensive and not detailed enough.   Also, I had other interests than just chess (girls, partying, music, dancing, karaoke, video games, watching tv and, later in life, Bible study, online ministry, etc.).   So, if I added up the time that I actually studied chess, it's probably more like 5-10 years, not 48.   Btw, getting from 1500 to 2000 will probably take longer than you think (around 10-30 years).   I went from 1200 to 1500 in about 3 years, but it took me about 25 years to go from 1500 to 1800.   You really gotta want it and be willing to sacrifice everything else in life.   It helps that you young guys have free training online though.   I didn't have that.

Anonymous_Dragon
JeffGreen333 wrote:
Anonymous_Dragon wrote:

How can someone study chess for 48years and still be below 2000 ? I started 6 months ago and am at 1500

I learned how to play chess 48 years ago, at the age of 9.  I didn't start studying the game until I was in my 20's though.  By then, it's too late to get to 2000.   Back in my day, we didn't have free Tactics Trainers and Puzzle Rush to improve our tactics or free online chess lessons where we could learn middlegame positions arising from certain openings.   All we had was books and magazines, which I couldn't afford to buy.   Also, I had other interests than just chess (girls, partying, music, dancing, karaoke, video games, watching tv, etc.).   So, if I added up the time that I actually studied chess, it's probably more like 5-10 years, not 48.   Btw, getting from 1500 to 2000 will probably take longer than you think (around 10-30 years).   I went from 1200 to 1500 in about 3 years, but it took me about 25 years to go from 1500 to 1800.   You really gotta want it and be willing to sacrifice everything else in life.   It helps that you young guys have free training online though.   I didn't have that.

Ah I see. I understand. Reading this makes me afraid of my journey further.... Will I ever be able to reach 1800+....

JeffGreen333
Arceusadi_69 wrote:

Not discrediting you or anything but the jump from 1500 to 2000 is really hard and challenging. 1500 is the end of beginner level; and this is where the advanced level stuff begins. so you cannot equate 2000 level to 1500 in 6 months

Great point and I agree.   Also, you have to study endgames extensively, in order to make it to the 2000 level in classical chess, @Anonymous_Dragon.   Not everyone can handle endgame study as it's extremely boring (to me, anyway).   That's where I lost interest.   I studied basic endgame principles like opposition, triangulation, king position, passed pawns, basic rook and pawn endgames, etc. but the rest of endgame study is pretty boring to me.   Btw, getting to a 2000 rating in online blitz or bullet doesn't count as becoming an Expert classical tournament player.   You don't even make it to the endgame in most bullet games.   Let me know when you get to a 2000 USCF or FIDE rating.   I'll probably die before you do though.   

JeffGreen333
PeasantElevator wrote:

I need to invest in a speed reading course. That was a post that took me 10 minutes to read.

It was an excellent, well-written post though.   I read it all and agreed with it.   The guy is a wordsmith.  

JeffGreen333
PeasantElevator wrote:

Getting to 1800 isn't hard, getting to 2000 is the real tough thing for me.

Yep.   I hit a wall at around 1800.   You gotta study endgames after that.   There's no way around it.   Tactics is my other weakness, but no matter how many Tactics Trainers I did, my tactics didn't improve.   I'm guessing the age factor has something to do with that.