Why am I so bad playing black?

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WaysandMeans
NervesofButter wrote:

 

You ended this game with 7:23 left on the clock. 

 yeah that was a bad one, I get into situations and am unsure what I am doing with black, at least with the London as white I sorta know what I am aiming at.

MrsPancake123

Take a look at the chessbrah building habit series on YouTube which will give you guidance no matter the colour or getting lost in opening principles. It teaches you the principles you need with repition. Great stuff and its for free

Duckfest

Your play with black is not that bad. If I look at your overall performance, you have a 49.5% winrate with black against e4 (over 209 games) and a 47.3% winrate against d4 (over 75 games). That's reasonable and can be fixed with a couple of minor adjustments.  Stop playing d6 against d4,  that's a terrible move. Switching to Nf6 against d4 could get you an overall winrate >50%,  based on your other games playing Nf6.  Just some low hanging fruit. For actual long term improvement, I recommend following the advice given by the guy below me (edited).

RAU4ever

This thread is full of terrible advice. A list for reference: 

- "The KID requires knowledge of theory not to get crushed". This is absolutely not true for the 800 level. Knowing opening theory at this level makes zero difference. After 5-7 moves players are already deviating from the standard main lines.
- "Maybe play a different opening like Slav, Dutch, Albin Counter, Nimzo etc. etc.". Every one of these openings can be played well and can be played badly, just like the KID / Modern. 
- "Black just has the disadvantage". Maybe if you're playing against Magnus Carlsen, but no 30 move game of players rated 800 has seen white get a small opening edge and building that into a win without giving his opponent even one small chance. Instead, every game gets decided by tactics. You just have to get yourself a decent position, no matter if that is slightly worse or equal. 
- "It's because you play speed chess". Their opponent is also playing speed chess. It doesn't explain why the black results are so much worse for OP than his white results. 

At your level, OP, you need to look at opening principles. They'll guide you to playing normal moves. By learning to play normal moves, you'll likely play better openings than most of your opponents anyway. The opening principles are: fighting for the center (white wants to get e4 and d4, black wants to prevent this OR break it up, where getting one pawn to move forward is acceptable as a way of breaking it up), develop your pieces as fast as you can (every move counts!) and getting your king safe. 

When I look at your black games, what I see is this: 
- you choose to play d6 and g6 systems. By doing this, you're playing a much more advanced style than 1. d4 d5. You're basically giving your opponent the e4-d4 center. You can only do this if you strike back at that center as fast as you can: you need to get c5, d5 or e5 in asap. You can't ignore the center. Even then, the feeling of being a little bit cramped is going to continue. By allowing white to stake out such a claim in the center, white gets more space, which means you have less space than white to move around in with all of your pieces. 

One example from one of your recent games:

You've given white a powerful center. You can't just sit and play ...b6, ... Bb7, ...0-0 and ...Nbd7. You're not going to have any active pieces. You need to attack this center. In this position for example, just castle and immediately afterwards play ...c5 or ...e5. Also, to underline that you're playing an advanced opening: after you play 5. ... 0-0, 6. Nf3, you can still play 6. ... e5, because of a tactic. After 7. dxe5, dxe5; 8. Nxe5 there is 8. ... Nxe4 and it all works out fine for black, because if 9. Nxe4, there is 9. ... Bxe5 and white has no desperados. That might be a difficult thing to see over the board, but it is absolutely mandatory to understand it, because you need either ...e5 or ...c5. 
- develop as fast as you can: don't play 1. d6 and 2. d5: that's inexcusable. Another example from one of your recent games: 

here you play 6. ... Nd4. I don't want to go into a discussion of this particular position and whether there are tactics that might make this move work. I just want to point out that this is the 2nd time you've played the knight. You can't do that in the opening. Just develop the rest of your pieces. Play 6. ... Bg7, 7. ... 0-0, 8. ... d6, develop your lightsquared bishop and then open up the position. You'll have so much firepower out by that time (compared to white) that you're going to end up on top. Time is of the essence, don't waste it. 

To reiterate: it doesn't matter which opening you play. You need to adhere to these opening principles, otherwise you'll always end up having a difficult game with black, no matter what your first, second and third moves are going to be. I've always advised my students to play 1. d4, d5 and 1. e4, c5 as black when we would first start out, but that's as far as the opening study would go. For the rest you can play a normal and decent opening by just making the moves in accordance with the opening principles. 

eric0022
GoodKnight8D wrote:

I think playing black you're always at a disadvantage

 

For the large majority of us, the slight advantage of White is often not utilised. It only becomes more of a factor once our ratings increase significantly.

WaysandMeans
RAU4ever wrote:

This thread is full of terrible advice. A list for reference: 

- "The KID requires knowledge of theory not to get crushed". This is absolutely not true for the 800 level. Knowing opening theory at this level makes zero difference. After 5-7 moves players are already deviating from the standard main lines.
- "Maybe play a different opening like Slav, Dutch, Albin Counter, Nimzo etc. etc.". Every one of these openings can be played well and can be played badly, just like the KID / Modern. 
- "Black just has the disadvantage". Maybe if you're playing against Magnus Carlsen, but no 30 move game of players rated 800 has seen white get a small opening edge and building that into a win without giving his opponent even one small chance. Instead, every game gets decided by tactics. You just have to get yourself a decent position, no matter if that is slightly worse or equal. 
- "It's because you play speed chess". Their opponent is also playing speed chess. It doesn't explain why the black results are so much worse for OP than his white results. 

At your level, OP, you need to look at opening principles. They'll guide you to playing normal moves. By learning to play normal moves, you'll likely play better openings than most of your opponents anyway. The opening principles are: fighting for the center (white wants to get e4 and d4, black wants to prevent this OR break it up, where getting one pawn to move forward is acceptable as a way of breaking it up), develop your pieces as fast as you can (every move counts!) and getting your king safe. 

When I look at your black games, what I see is this: 
- you choose to play d6 and g6 systems. By doing this, you're playing a much more advanced style than 1. d4 d5. You're basically giving your opponent the e4-d4 center. You can only do this if you strike back at that center as fast as you can: you need to get c5, d5 or e5 in asap. You can't ignore the center. Even then, the feeling of being a little bit cramped is going to continue. By allowing white to stake out such a claim in the center, white gets more space, which means you have less space than white to move around in with all of your pieces. 

One example from one of your recent games:

You've given white a powerful center. You can't just sit and play ...b6, ... Bb7, ...0-0 and ...Nbd7. You're not going to have any active pieces. You need to attack this center. In this position for example, just castle and immediately afterwards play ...c5 or ...e5. Also, to underline that you're playing an advanced opening: after you play 5. ... 0-0, 6. Nf3, you can still play 6. ... e5, because of a tactic. After 7. dxe5, dxe5; 8. Nxe5 there is 8. ... Nxe4 and it all works out fine for black, because if 9. Nxe4, there is 9. ... Bxe5 and white has no desperados. That might be a difficult thing to see over the board, but it is absolutely mandatory to understand it, because you need either ...e5 or ...c5. 
- develop as fast as you can: don't play 1. d6 and 2. d5: that's inexcusable. Another example from one of your recent games: 

here you play 6. ... Nd4. I don't want to go into a discussion of this particular position and whether there are tactics that might make this move work. I just want to point out that this is the 2nd time you've played the knight. You can't do that in the opening. Just develop the rest of your pieces. Play 6. ... Bg7, 7. ... 0-0, 8. ... d6, develop your lightsquared bishop and then open up the position. You'll have so much firepower out by that time (compared to white) that you're going to end up on top. Time is of the essence, don't waste it. 

To reiterate: it doesn't matter which opening you play. You need to adhere to these opening principles, otherwise you'll always end up having a difficult game with black, no matter what your first, second and third moves are going to be. I've always advised my students to play 1. d4, d5 and 1. e4, c5 as black when we would first start out, but that's as far as the opening study would go. For the rest you can play a normal and decent opening by just making the moves in accordance with the opening principles. 

 

 

thanks mate for taking time to post all that. a lot of food for thought and I will take time to digest it, top post. 

WaysandMeans

 

 

I felt I did a bit better in this game a few mins ago, not perfect but a start?

EzraBridger10

can somebody tell me how to be good

EzraBridger10

even when im white i Still always badcry.png

EKAFC

A beginner shouldn't be using the KID. Very theoretical and complicated to play. Against 1.e4, I recommend the French Defense as it is easy to learn and especially at the beginning will put your opponent out of their comfort zone and into yours as they are used to 1...e5 or 1...d5. 

 

Against 1.d4, the Dutch is good because no one plays it and it does offer good chances or a Queen's Gambit Declined or any 1...d5 opening. The Indian Defenses with 1...Nf6 are too theoretical for a beginner

tlay80

RAU4ever gave some good advice.

I'm not going to say anything nearly as helpful, but I did thought I'd step back and answer the original question --Why am I so bad playing black? -- in completely different way

Which is: You're not.  Not statistically, anyway.  You score about 53.5% as White and 49% as Black.  That's about what everyone does -- in fact, it's probably a smaller gap than most people's.  (Smaller than mine, for instance.)

Which doesn't mean you're not right to be working on things.  But it's not like you have some horrible deficit you need to overcome.

Immaculate_Slayer

Well that's kind of normal since black is worse from the beginning in a lot of openings so

tlay80
NervesofButter wrote:
Immaculate_Slayer wrote:

Well that's kind of normal since black is worse from the beginning in a lot of openings so

Unless youre a GM level player.  Having the first move means squat.

Does the data back that up?  I'm no GM, and I score a good 7-8 percentage points better as White.

I mean, I know where you're coming from -- the advantage can certainly be overstated.  But I doubt it's nonexistent.

tlay80

Ah, found some date, covering a wide range of ratings.  Looks like the gap is around 3 percentage points, so small but not nothing.  It's pretty much in line with the OP's gap.  My own gap is evidently on the high side.

Ilampozhil25

my gap is on the negative side, concerning rapid happy.png

Ilampozhil25

yes, we players who do better with black than white do exist, and to counteract the players who do better than average with white i assume

ChesswithGautham
SmallerCircles wrote:

If you like the Nf6 start like with the KID, you could do the Nimzo-Indian + QID, which should be less suffocating and a little less tricky than KID.

It can start with some other moves too and typically black will end up pushing to c5 and d5. The bishop in QID monitors the e4 square. And the aim in the Nimzo-Indian is to eventually take the pinned knight and give white doubled pawns.

That’s what I play against my fellow 600 and 700’s when they play d4, and surprisingly I win every game with it

RAU4ever
WaysandMeans wrote:

I felt I did a bit better in this game a few mins ago, not perfect but a start?

When I look at that last game, I see these points. 

1. You've got better control over the center. After this your play is a little easier for you. 

2. Ask yourself the question after move 9: is your Bd7 happy? Is Nb8 happy? The goal is to always try and get the best out of your pieces. After move 9, your Nb8 can't develop. Your Bd7 is looking at its own pawns. Both pieces aren't really happy about all of this. Now, we can look at where this problem started. It's with 4. ... Bd7. This move was a mistake: it was too passive. 4. ... Bf5 is pretty reasonable. It also adheres better to opening principles: develop your pieces actively and towards the center. We can also work out a different setup for black. If Bb7 is not the right square and we think Bf5 is too dangerous, how could we have developed to make Nb8 and Bd7 happier? A setup could be to go for a Nbd7 and ...b6-...Bb7 setup. Then your pieces are out of eachother's ways. Still, Bb7 won't be too happy, because he's looking at his own pawns, so I still think Bf5 would've been a better square, but at least Bb7 isn't in the way anymore. 

3. Another thing to notice: white plays Nc3-a4 without having the other pieces developed. You play 11. ... Bd6 without the other pieces being developed. And then 12. ... Bb4. Yes, you could've just taken the pawn on move 12, but I just want to draw attention to how long it takes both of you to get all of your pieces into the game. 23 moves to get Nb8 into the action is a looooong time. And if we're being honest, Rf8 never did anything in this game, did he? You were essentially playing a rook down for a while. It pays to pay attention to getting all of your pieces involved and for them to get involved as fast as they can. 

So what you could take away from this is:

- develop as actively as possible. Don't be passive with moves like Bd7, because you'll rue it later
- develop every piece to active squares as fast as you can. Don't forget certain pieces, cause you'd effectively be playing down that piece.

Solmyr1234
WaysandMeans wrote:

I go through winning with white lots of games in a row, but black really causes my problems, try the kings indian defense but always get suffocated, any tips?

I wanna start by saying "At your level...", but, no.

To be honest? I don't know what you're talking about - I'm far better as Black.

 

First, please take the quiz, so we know how to start helping you. Answer as accurately as possible.

https://www.chess.com/article/view/whats-your-chess-personality

and maybe also read this article [there's a summary at the end of it anyway, maybe that's better].

https://www.chess.com/article/view/picking-the-correct-opening-repertoire

Second, perhaps you should simply change the board color settings - Black pieces are sometimes harder to see in a game - I speak from my own experience - I have changed boards too until I found one where the light squares aren't too light - eliminating the white pieces, and the dark squares aren't too dark - eliminating the black pieces.

joshualibi001

Pirc Defence is easy to learn