Any general tips on how to analyze without the engine?

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PineappleBird

@1g1yy listen your Gukesh example is actually spot on.. so you are aware of his story and others who have been formally trained with similar emphasis.. I mean.. I have lost tons of games and was so angry and tilted I was like - "I'm never falling for that again.. I'm going to memorize 4 moves ahead in every single variation arising from this ridiculous gambit to blitz out the refutation next time!" 

fine.. it works sometimes, and sometimes you just feel like checking with the engine, no problem..

but I think there's a problem especially with us who started playing in the 2019 chess boom that we are absolutely dependant on it and don't know how to start analyzing in a different way.. 

 

I recently started reading "My System" by Nimzo... and I'm just blown away by how he reached engine-like understanding in the 1920s ! like how were they all so good in that generation of the 1920 - 1940s... no engine! it's unbelievable... so... that's what made me open this thread and people actually gave really nice tips.. so don't be so skeptical wink.png 

llama36
1g1yy wrote:

Maybe I'm a little too hung up on the words people use when they talk about this stuff  but it's just the way I am. I have heard the phrase "analyze your games without the engine" so many times, and from so many different people, that it's become almost cliche. I also find that this is largely advice from old school chess players or people who just parrot what those people say. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I would also say that there's been a lot of evolution in the last two decades in not only the way the game is played but the way it is learned. More than maybe in the last thousand years before.

If I was going to advocate such a thing, I would say it like this. Go back and take a solid look at your completed games with a fresh and open mind. Don't use an engine and try to find all the mistakes you made in the game.

Now that makes more sense to me than a statement which has all kinds of implied meaning depending upon who is hearing it. Especially when my interpretation of "analyze without the engine" might actually be influenced by things I know for a fact have been done by other players. And I mean by grandmasters. I believe it is Gukesh who's progress basically was a life experiment, and he absolutely never used an engine until only just very recently. This on the advice of his coach. Now clearly that can work because he's pretty good. But It doesn't necessarily mean that it's the easiest way to get better.

I read through the thread about the Evans method and that kind of implies you can do that during a game, but that would be very time consuming. They do say later you don't need to actually do it, you just need to understand the concept, so that makes more sense. They imply it becomes kind of like muscle memory which is true of pretty much all things chess. I'm thinking it's something useful during your self analysis but maybe not so much during the game itself. To each his own. I would not attempt it during the game, certainly not at my current level.

I think it also depends on the game. If I spend 5 minutes on a blitz game, then there's no way I'm going to analyze without an engine. I'm going to check 1 or 2 positions, see the eval, maybe see which move it prefers instead, and move on to the next game. Total analysis time probably less than 1 minute.

But for tournament games it's different. Blitz is mostly intuition, so I want a quick answer to the question of whether my intuition was right or not.

In classical time control games, there was a lot more going on than just the moves played. There's all the lines and evaluations that went through you head that you didn't play. It's useful to sort those out and think about things like, maybe I didn't stick with this line long enough, or wow I missed something in this other line... if you analyze on your own like that, then you'll have fully worked out your version of the truth (so to speak). Then you can look over that with an engine to check things.

---

You mention that in one of your games the engine showed you a 14 move variation... I hope you realize some things it shows you are simply not practical.

If the engine recommends I play a mate in 10, but it's in a position where if I miss even 1 move then I immediatly lose, then I'm going to call that suggestion nonsense... but if I find a move that's evaluated at 0.00 but my opponent has all sorts of problems to solve, then that 0.00 move is vastly superior to the mate in 10... so for that reason too, players should probably skip any in depth engine analysis until they've learned some basics like read one book on strategy. That way they at least have a chance to tell the difference between a nonsense suggestion and a good one.

But anyway, after some blitz or rapid games, quickly checking stuff with an engine? Sure, I imagine that's useful for everyone.

PineappleBird

great post lama thx for that 1 ^^^^

1g1yy
llama36 wrote:

You mention that in one of your games the engine showed you a 14 move variation... I hope you realize some things it shows you are simply not practical.

That was in a daily game actually. My opponent was taking the entire 3 days for a lot of the moves and I spent a tremendous amount of time looking at the games on his time. Then of course I would spend time on my own time. Just not the whole 3 days. If there was anything that tracked how much time I looked at this I wouldn't be shocked if it said I spent 6 hours looking at this move. Fact is I looked at the first several moves of exactly the line the computer was recommending but I couldn't see it leading to anything. I have no idea what looking at the game afterward will tell me because I still can't see this continuation and game review gave me the answer.

I lost from +7 here. White to move.

 

1g1yy

32. Qh4h633. Ne8+Kf834. Nd6Kg835. Nxe6Bc836. Nf4g537. Qh5Qxd638. exd6gxf4

llama36
1g1yy wrote:
llama36 wrote:

You mention that in one of your games the engine showed you a 14 move variation... I hope you realize some things it shows you are simply not practical.

That was in a daily game actually. My opponent was taking the entire 3 days for a lot of the moves and I spent a tremendous amount of time looking at the games on his time. Then of course I would spend time on my own time. Just not the whole 3 days. If there was anything that tracked how much time I looked at this I wouldn't be shocked if it said I spent 6 hours looking at this move. Fact is I looked at the first several moves of exactly the line the computer was recommending but I couldn't see it leading to anything. I have no idea what looking at the game afterward will tell me because I still can't see this continuation and game review gave me the answer.

I lost from +7 here. White to move.

 

Sure, engines are (really) good for showing tactics.

The whole game wasn't that one position so there may be other things to analyze... but sure, if you feel like this was the only thing to learn from the game, then have the engine show you forcing sequences.

llama36

By the way, if you played Qh4 and gave a few checks, and it just didn't work out in the end, at least you had the right idea.

But if you played a move like Ne8+ in that position, then IMO there's an important lesson there (if you attack with just 1 piece it isn't an attack).

blueemu
HeroinSheep wrote:

I recently started reading "My System" by Nimzo... and I'm just blown away by how he reached engine-like understanding in the 1920s ! like how were they all so good in that generation of the 1920 - 1940s... no engine! it's unbelievable... so... that's what made me open this thread and people actually gave really nice tips.. so don't be so skeptical  

My System by Nimzovich is an excellent book. Some people on this forum have criticized it because it was written long before chess engines became available and it therefore has a few tactical errors or omissions in the lines given. This criticism misses the point entirely. My System lays out a method of thinking... a way of approaching the task of finding the truth concealed within a chess position. The lack of engine-approved rigor in a few variations does not invalidate that approach.

My favorite book on chess theory is Pawn Power in Chess, by Kmoch... another extremely controversial book, with people (up to GM level) either loving it or hating it.

KevinOSh

KevinOSh

Computer engines can be useful but it is important to understand their limitations so that they are not overused and over relied on.

When a move is flagged as an inaccuracy sometimes it is a good move for playing against a human, and sometimes it is a very serious mistake that played a bigger role in losing the game than a move made later on that is characterized as a blunder.

If you look at grandmaster games the engine will often find blunders but the way to exploit the blunder is usually very difficult to find. These moves are much better than the beginner kind of blunders that immediately hang a major piece or mate.

So the engine feedback is how your moves compare to the current engine state of the art moves. But to win games you just need to outsmart the person you are playing, or in other words play at a higher level than they do. 

ItsTwoDuece
blueemu wrote:
HeroinSheep wrote:

I recently started reading "My System" by Nimzo... and I'm just blown away by how he reached engine-like understanding in the 1920s ! like how were they all so good in that generation of the 1920 - 1940s... no engine! it's unbelievable... so... that's what made me open this thread and people actually gave really nice tips.. so don't be so skeptical  

My System by Nimzovich is an excellent book. Some people on this forum have criticized it because it was written long before chess engines became available and it therefore has a few tactical errors or omissions in the lines given. This criticism misses the point entirely. My System lays out a method of thinking... a way of approaching the task of finding the truth concealed within a chess position. The lack of engine-approved rigor in a few variations does not invalidate that approach.

My System is certainly a worthwhile read for anyone looking to improve in my opinion. There is also "Modern Chess Strategy: Advances Since Nimzowitsch" which, as the name implies, expands on this method by addressing the changes in strategy since his time. I can also second the quality of "Pawn Power." I read it pretty early on in my attempts at improvement, and come to think of it it's probably about time I give it another read through as I've learned a lot since then.

Another option I'd recommend is "Reassess Your Chess" by Silman, another book focused on identifying plans. Silman gives an approach somewhat similar to the Evan's method, focused on creating, identifying, and playing around imbalances in the position. I've just about finished it and so far it's been great, especially the selection of annotated games to illuminate each imbalance.

1g1yy
HeroinSheep wrote:

@1g1yy listen your Gukesh example is actually spot on.. so you are aware of his story and others who have been formally trained with similar emphasis.. I mean.. I have lost tons of games and was so angry and tilted I was like - "I'm never falling for that again.. I'm going to memorize 4 moves ahead in every single variation arising from this ridiculous gambit to blitz out the refutation next time!" 

fine.. it works sometimes, and sometimes you just feel like checking with the engine, no problem..

but I think there's a problem especially with us who started playing in the 2019 chess boom that we are absolutely dependant on it and don't know how to start analyzing in a different way.. 

 

I recently started reading "My System" by Nimzo... and I'm just blown away by how he reached engine-like understanding in the 1920s ! like how were they all so good in that generation of the 1920 - 1940s... no engine! it's unbelievable... so... that's what made me open this thread and people actually gave really nice tips.. so don't be so skeptical  

I don't think I get tilted and I certainly wouldn't categorize my opening study as memorization. I study a lot of Concepts and try to play the positions. Some memorization does happen as a side effect but it's a consequence, not an aim.

In the game I posted above I returned to that position, played the Ne8+ move which I had considered and tried to make work for several hours during the game, and I was able to win that position against the engine at 3200. I didn't play it because I couldn't see that far ahead and I felt I was going to be leaving my king hang out to dry by moving all my pieces farther away and letting his Queen infiltrate. It is what it is, it's not the end of the world. It certainly hasn't caused me any tilt, my opponent made better choices and the result was he won.

I've actually reflected upon that game more than almost any I've ever played because I think there's a great deal of instructional value in it. Not for anybody else but for myself of course. I'm not going to say I'll learn anything from it but I'm pretty sure there are lessons for me in there.

I do all of my books on Chesable and I think I'm pretty objective about addressing my biggest weaknesses first. For the amount that I have played and how long I've been at it I am extremely happy with my progress. Of course everybody expects more and I'm no exception.

As far as your statement about another way of analyzing, no sooner did I post a few times and somebody posted that video above of the guy showing how to analyze on your own. What that guy advocates is dramatically different than most of the advice I've seen thrown around. His attitude seems almost exactly like my own, take a good look at your game, try to come up with new ideas and then check and see with the engine if you were correct.

Any skepticism that I've got is more aimed towards the the idea that what works for top GMs is somehow a good thing for others. It's even possible that's true. Unfortunately 1g1yy does not live in a major city, does not have a chess club with Grandmasters by the dozens coaching the local players. He doesn't have the time to devote 24/7 to chess and is of the opinion that if you don't have the aforementioned Grandmasters to error check your work, there's not much more opportunity to learn than there was in the game. So for a guy like me where it's a 3-hour drive to the first place I can play OTB chess, that engine IS my Grandmaster coach. Gukesh may have been able to make it to 18 years old and 2700 before ever using an engine, but he had other resources available to him that most mortals do not. While his story is really cool, there are other circumstances in it that do not apply to everyone.

 

 

brasileirosim

Guys, I wrote a lengthy comment about how to analyse a game without an engine and I received a warning  from chess.com that I violated chess.com guidelines. Another guy received the same warning. Do you know what is going on? This is the first time this happened to me, and I even don’t know why!

brasileirosim
brasileirosim wrote:

Guys, I wrote a lengthy comment about how to analyse a game without an engine and I received a warning  from chess.com that I violated chess.com guidelines. Another guy received the same warning. Do you know what is going on? This is the first time this happened to me, and I even don’t know why!

This is the message I got:

Your post seems to not fit our Community Guidelines. Repeated violations may result in your account being restricted. Thank you for helping Chess.com stay a fun and friendly place for all!

 

Ziryab

I go through a few steps in game analysis, whether it is my game or one played by someone else.

1) play through it at least twice.

2) Find the critical moments: when did one side gain a decisive advantage?

3) Determine the game’s most important lesson 

4) Observe the tactics played and those that might have been played

5) check my analysis with an engine

1g1yy
brasileirosim wrote:

Guys, I wrote a lengthy comment about how to analyse a game without an engine and I received a warning  from chess.com that I violated chess.com guidelines. Another guy received the same warning. Do you know what is going on? This is the first time this happened to me, and I even don’t know why!

Most likely a word that's not allowed

EnPassantFork
Bheeshmaparva wrote:

What's wrong here? I had typed a lengthy answer for this topic and when I clicked 'post', this appeared. 👇


 

It was probably the word "i d i o t".

I ran into the same thing when I posted something in Spanish and used the word for "Black" which the algorithm apparently didn't like.

Note that if you trigger the violation twice in a 24 hour period, your account will be temporarily suspended for a day.

EnPassantFork
blueemu wrote:
HeroinSheep wrote:

I recently started reading "My System" by Nimzo... and I'm just blown away by how he reached engine-like understanding in the 1920s ! like how were they all so good in that generation of the 1920 - 1940s... no engine! it's unbelievable... so... that's what made me open this thread and people actually gave really nice tips.. so don't be so skeptical  

My System by Nimzovich is an excellent book. Some people on this forum have criticized it because it was written long before chess engines became available and it therefore has a few tactical errors or omissions in the lines given. This criticism misses the point entirely. My System lays out a method of thinking... a way of approaching the task of finding the truth concealed within a chess position. The lack of engine-approved rigor in a few variations does not invalidate that approach.


 

Coincidentally, I was just reading through this over the weekend.  The man was ahead of his time.

EnPassantFork

Agadmator refers to them collectively as "disgusting engine lines":  something that is technically correct but that no human would [want to] play.

There's a difference between precision and practicality.

blueemu

Nimzovich goes in and out of fashion.

So does Kmoch, but with more violent opinion swings.