Classical dutch with Nc6 and Bf6 and they play b4 b5

 

The first clear mistake you made was Ne4 and Nxc3, basically wasting time and helping the opponent by activating your knight and using your own turn to exchange it for no reason.

The b4 idea isn't that impressive - what's more important was that black hung material, and then white hung a piece, losing the game. That's what will really matter, not whether white has the option to do b4 or not.

Also, no idea why white resigned with 2 pawns for the piece and blacks somewhat exposed king..

7.Ne4 is the move to be played according to Simon Williams killer Dutch DVD

This is a logical move. White has a space advantage so Black aims to alleviate his position by exchanging pieces with the move ...Ne4. This move also frees the f6-square for Black's dark-squared bishop. I used to think that this was the solution to all of Black's problems. That was until White started to play 8 Nxe4! --- The latter is the only way that White can aim to gain an advantage, but there is still not enough evidence to suggest that the resulting position is equal or even slightly better for White. I personally think that White has a very small advantage, but the position remains unbalanced and is therefore extremely interesting. --- 7...Ne4 is an easy line to remember and Black's future plans are relatively straightforward compared with Black's other options on move eight. --- -Simon Williams

Well then I disagree that you should be playing these lines - the reason is the same as why I don't play lines that top GMs play - the moves may be theoretically cutting edge, but the positions resulting arent that good to play.

Ne4 and Nc3 break fundamental opening principles, which you should be focused on following, and not breaking, at your level.

Also, note that an opening edge pretty much vanishes if you drop a pawn for free at some point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnGhbxaMpjE

Simon Williams (GM) doing quite well with blitz playing the Dutch.
John Bartholomew (IM) won the match overall.

Ne4 makes sense in that blacks defensive task is easier by trading pieces when he has less space, opens up the f file for the rook so i can meet e4 with f5 and the resulting positions are easy to play IMO:

 

 

#8
"Should I have played a5 [to prevent b4]?" NO.
Simon Williams, did in the first game, okay not the same Dutch line but not in the second game as he figured it was a waste of a tempo. Get the knight on f4 was his take.
So for example if you had played ... Ng6 at some point you would have supported a decent f4 break and covered your e5.

Well done for spending your hard earned dollars on a CD by an English GM !!!

#9

Thanks for that Rat1960! That sounds like a nice idea that I could have thought about with Ng6 supporting f4 and e5!

 

I love anything by the ginger gm! I have bought his ebooks for: the killer dutch, the attacking french, killer d4, as well as his youtube videos! 

plz stay o n topic.or else

Are you a mod? or else? No explanation of who you are or reasoning for your statement beyond it is not on topic!? I believe we are on topic. Killer dutch is the book i am referencing as well as the others. I am a paying member of chess.com and its bad enough having to put up with trolls, and negative nancies. I don't need nitpicking when someone wants to be friendly or if I want to throw some love to the ginger gm (who is affiliated with this site). 

 To me it seems you are mixing two variations. If you go 6 ... d6 you usually answer 7 Nc3 either with Qe8 or a5 both are old mainlines. Otherwise you can go 6 ... Ne4 (Alekhine var) followed by Bf6.

In your game if white takes on e4 fxe4 Nd2 d6-d5 seems to lose a tempo in my eyes.

Your defensive plan against b4 is dubious as after 15. bxc6 Lxc6 16. d5 exd5 17. cxd5 Ld7 18. e3 white seems to have solid advantage. In the game your light squares were quite weak.

Yeah, looked like you're mixing variations. Nc6 also looked weird.

Get 10, 20, 30 dutch games and just play over the whole game to get a feel for what they're like. Then you can try to memorize stuff if you want. If the only thing you do is memorize you can end up doing things that don't make sense when you can't quite remember the lines.

I know all these moves you played are dutch-like, but clearly white was better out of the opening.

#13

I believe that they view the dutch as an improved KID is that black plays f5 so fast and we have done this. So advancing the knight allows f4 or opening of the f file if they take. Also I want to prevent them from playing e4 so putting the knight there helps. I see what you're saying about losing attacking pieces but I think the benefits out weigh the loss of the knight. Eventually I will bring the other knight around to attack.

 

#14

I suppose  I am mixing two variations but this mix is called the Modern Classical Dutch by Simon. I beliee that d6 allows black to reamin flexible in the center. Also your line:  15. bxc6 Lxc6 16. d5 exd5 17. cxd5 Ld718. e3. Why did you play 15 Lxc6 (Bxc6) rather than bxc6 so as to meet d5 with e5?

Oh I see after looking at the computer. I am down between +0.5- +1.3 out of the opening

 

#15

I do think that Nc6 is a little weird and better is Nd7 maybe?

After 10 moves white is +0.5 but if I am more familiar with the dutch I will be ok.

I am not memorizing past move 7 just concepts and general plans. It sounds like I am memorizing I am just trying to get ideas to add to my idea arsenal. Yes I do still blunder about twice per game and make around 4 mistakes a game and plenty of inaccuracies I still want to pick up ideas.

 

I too play the classical Dutch but I have the killer Dutch book not the DVD which makes moments like these easier as I can just lookup the moves. Anyway after bxc3 white has kept his queen on c2 and is threatening to play e4 and as you know black needs to be able to meet e4 with e5 which is why Nc6 is played however after your game continuation Qxc3 white is no longer threatening e4 hence Nc6 is not warranted and so William's recommended move is actually a5 against Qxc3 for this exact reason...

"It is a good idea to stop White from playing b4 as this move helps him to gain space on the queenside. The move ... a5 also allows Black to obtain control of the b4-square, for example, if White plays Re1, Black can reply with ... Bb4 at some point.

Moskalenko gives the move 9 ... a5 as dubious, but I have to disagree with him on this point. He prefers 9 ... Bf6 but the move 10 b4 has always scared me here. In my first book on the Dutch, Play the Classical Dutch, I suggested the move 10 ... Nd7, but nowadays I prefer not to give my opponent so much space on one area of the board. In my opinion, White’s trickiest moves are 10 Qc2 and 10 b3. 10 b3 is a very popular choice so Black should be well prepared against this variation." -Simon Williams, The Killer Dutch

So many things told by players who don't have a clue about this opening...

Really, just watch video series here by S.Williams or purchase his dvd.

He explains why u don't have to play Nc6 for example here.

Black want to obtain e5-f5, giving f4 possible to attack.

But if u enable here d4 trading against your e pawn, your position will not be good.

9...Nc6? 10.d5 is the point. If u cant play e5, then, no f4, then no attack, then your Bc8 remains bad, etc...

Williams advocates a5 to limitate white's space advantage and take b4 square which can be useful later if u continue with Nc6.

He gives this line :

Sure u can play without a5 but i like the idea to limitate white's expansion on Qside.