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malurn

I havent checked to see if this is already an ongoing topic of discussion, but I have a small bone to pick with chess.com, and I was curious to know if others out there have had similar experiences.  As part of being a diamond level member I get access to supposedly "higher" rated analysis of 2500 level strength.  Whenever I lose a game in live chess I usually submit the game for computer analysis so that I can see where I went wrong, and what I could have done differently. There have been several instances lately, where the computer shows either one of my moves to be dubious or outright blunders, and provides a better line to show me the error of my ways.  However, when I go through the computer provided line it looks to be completely losing.  When it first occured I said to myself " no I must be missing something" there is no way a computer of 2500 level strength would miss such a basic winning line.  This has happened a few times, and today was the final straw, that led me to post this article. 

I lost a game earlier today, and submitted it to chess.com for computer analysis. Upon return of the analysis I begin to go through it, and as usual the computer pointed out several errors that I made during the course of the game. However, in one particular line it told me to move my pawn from f3 to f2.  Now I was white in this game, so I'm hoping all of you chess geniuses out there will understand the inherent problem with this suggested move.  If you cant quite get it let me spell it out for you...PAWNS CANT MOVE BACKWARDS. As you can imagine I was completely dismayed by this line provided. It has made me doubt the validity of the computer analysis altogether. As I stated previously this isnt the first time this has happened...this just happens to be one of the most blatant errors I have ever seen from the chess.com computer.

So my question to all of you is have you received flawed analysis from the chess.com computer?  And for the people who run the site, are you aware of this issue? Is anything being done to remedy it?  I will post a few of my games, that I have submitted for analysis, in which the lines provided (which the computer claims give me an edge) are completely losing or at the very least inaccurate.  If someone can see a way that I can hold the position, or validate that the computer is in fact correct, please feel free to call me a fool and illustrate the winning continuation!! Below you can find the position in which the computer recommends the best continuation for white is to move his pawn from f3 to f2.  Ill copy and paste the full recommended line next to the diagram.

38. f3f2 Rxf2 39. Rxf2 exf2+ 40. Qxf2 Qc1+ 41. Be1 Re8 42. Kf1 Re3 43. Rxe3 dxe3 )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is another game of mine that I had analyzed in which the computer claims I have a slight advantage, and then the line it provides shows me mating my opponent. Its clearly not forced mate, and there are a lot better continuations for black. I just cant believe after I read the analysis that the computer shows me mating, and then claims "white has a slight advantage". If checkmate is only a slight advantage then I would like a slight advantage more often!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now in the game my opponent played ...Qg4, and the computer claims this move is a blunder (which it is because now after Kh1 the bishop is trapped).  Here is the line the computer provides in lieu of what was played:    18... Qg6 19. c4 Rad8 20. Rd2 Bc8 21. Rc1 Bg4 22. Rcc2 Bf5 23. Rc3 dxc4 24. Qxd8 Rxd8 25. Rxd8#;  and after Rxd8# the computer says that white has a slight advantage.

There are several other games that I could post, but I think by now anyone reading this gets the point im trying to make.  Really the purpose of this article is not to bash on chess.com, but to provide constructive feedback so that we can continually improve the site, in order to help all of us improve on our chess playing abilities. I really enjoy the convenience of clicking on "computer analysis" after I finish my game, and getting some feedback on where I went wrong, but if the analysis is flawed its really hurting my play rather then helping it.

grolich

I'd LOVE to answer. Because illegal moves...well, that problem has not been an issue at all for years with Chess engines, and I don't believe chess.com wrote one of their own. Plenty of good ones to use.

 

My only problem is, you're showing an off game position (maybe you reached it in analysis and mistakenly shown it to be the main line? or switched lines?

 

Here's my issue:

Here's a link to the game:

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=22686860

Obviously same game. Too close a position to the one you put:) But the position you placed in the diagram never happened in the game.

 

For one thing, in the game, by the time black's queen played itself to g5, the f and g pawns were already off the board. So you're just showing a position that never occured.

 

 

More to the point, the position you show in the first diagram, not only never happened in the game, but COULD have happened, had he played 37...Qg5 instead of 37...gxf3, which he did in the game, which should have given white a clear win (with the simple 39.Bxc5 with a won position, instead of 39.Qxf3? which reaches a lost position).

37...Qg5 is the move that, HAD it been played, would have kept the game going and would have reached the position you gave in your diagram.

So it stands to reason that you would get a line showing how your opponent could have done better (to show your mistake).

But there's obviously something strange going on with position synching... Some analysis seems to talk about different positions than the ones you think, so , if you don't mind, I'd love to see the full computer analysis you were given to the game, not just this line you put, ok? otherwise...with a position not of the game, perhaps the analysis was of another subline. If I could take a look at it, I may get a better idea and be able to help.

grolich

As for the second game, again, for better understanding what we're talking about, I assume it's this game:

http://www.chess.com/livechess/game.html?id=22643892.

 

It seems to me like for some reason (perhaps bad fonts?), you're confusing sublines and variations with the main lines the computer gives.  It stands to reason it would show why black can't play other lines (and show the mate in them) in sublines of the lines it gives. But then, it also would make sense it would be easily understandable because the sublines would be marked with "()" or something like that. strange.

 

The reason I think that is because I agree with the computer analysis in that:

18...Qg4 loses extremely quickly while 18...Qg6...well, should lose I think, but you have to play it rather well (no, there's no forced mate...)

 

So here too, I would like to see the entire analysis you got with the computer analysis please. I'd like to help, but it's difficult to understand what's going on with partial info.

grolich

Something else is going on, I find it hard to believe the computer analysis would give 19.c4 in the alternative line... white has a lot more crushing lines...Hmmm...  unless the full analysis you'll show (if you want to) reveals anything about what's going on here, I suggest you let someone who's running this site (such as eric...for instance) about this.

grolich

Also, dxc4 in the line the computer gave in the second game is nonsensical (well, most of the line is, but that one is just a bluner). Weird.

 

I've never encountered any problems with computer analysis here.

So it's two strange issues. First I wonder about the illegal move. sounds weird. second, that line seems almost completely botched. Entirely strange

malurn

Grolich can you please share with me how I can send you the analysis?  Do I have to manually put in the lines that the computer has given or is there a way for me to simply copy and paste the full game text as well as the analysis?  I would like to share with you other games of mine that I find flawed as well...I didnt want to swarm the forum with a bunch of games, but perhaps I could send them to you via a private message?

grolich

Well, I tend to delete the computer analysis messages, but, I'll find out. Just requested analysis of one of my games, I'll see how it can be sent/handled

malurn

Also with regards to the first game you are correct in saying that black never played his queen to g5...after I played gxf3 he also played gxf3, however; having said that the point I was trying to make is that the computer is saying my opponent should not have played gxf3, but rather should have played Qg5, to which my response should have been to move my pawn from f3 to f2.  Now we can debate which moves are best for white and black all day long, but the biggest thing that I wanted to bring to the forefront was that the computers suggestions of continuations are clearly flawed.  This flawed line was easy to spot because obviously you cant move your pawn backwards, but my big concern is what about some lines that are more subtle...do I need to closely scrutinize these lines for mistakes or can I take them at face value and trust in the "2500" level strength of the computer to improve my play?

malurn

Grolich you gave me an excellent idea.  Im terrible at deleting my inbox on here so I have saved every single game that the computer has analyzed for me in my inbox. Here are both games for your analytical enjoyment. Now you can see first hand exactly what im talking about.

http://www.chess.com/home/computer_analysis.html?id=22686860

http://www.chess.com/home/computer_analysis.html?id=22643892

grolich
malurn wrote:

Grolich you gave me an excellent idea.  Im terrible at deleting my inbox on here so I have saved every single game that the computer has analyzed for me in my inbox. Here are both games for your analytical enjoyment. Now you can see first hand exactly what im talking about.

http://www.chess.com/home/computer_analysis.html?id=22686860

http://www.chess.com/home/computer_analysis.html?id=22643892


Heh. I'm afraid these links only apply to your own user when you're logged in. Others can't access it.

Sorry. That actually makes sense. Though there should be a suggestion made a add a "copy computer analysis" button in that window, to facilitate easier discussion about specific analyses in the forums

 

However, pasting everything that was written in the analysis window in these messages (EVERYTHING, with the parentheses...in one go. don't paste parts and then the next part... too many potential problems) may be sufficient in this case:)

malurn

Here is the complete computer analysis from game 1...parantheses and everything :) I think this is far from an ideal way to review the analysis, but I guess it will have to do for now.

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Nc3 e6 4. Bc4 Bb4 5. f3?! ( 5. Ne2 Bxe4 6. O-O d5 7. Nxe4 dxc4 8. a3 Be7 9. Bf4 Nf6 10. N2g3 Nxe4 11. Nxe4 ) ( 5. f3 d5 6. exd5 exd5 7. Bd3 Nc6 8. a3 Bxc3+ 9. bxc3 Qh4+ 10. g3 Qe7+ 11. Ne2 Nf6 ) 5... Nf6 6. Ne2 Nxe4?? ( 6... d5 7. exd5 exd5 8. Bd3 Nc6 9. O-O O-O 10. Bf4 Bxc3 11. bxc3 Re8 ) ( 6... Nxe4 7. fxe4 Qh4+ 8. Ng3 Bxe4 9. O-O Bxc2 10. Qxc2 Qxd4+ 11. Qf2 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qxc4 13. Qxf7+ ) 7. fxe4 Bxe4 8. O-O O-O? ( 8... Bg6 9. a3 Be7 10. Nf4 Nc6 11. Nxg6 hxg6 12. Bf4 d5 13. Bb5 Qd7 ) ( 8... O-O 9. Nxe4 d5 10. c3 Be7 11. Bd3 dxe4 12. Bxe4 c6 13. Bf4 Bd6 ) 9. a3? ( 9. Nxe4 d5 10. a3 Be7 11. Bd3 dxe4 12. Bxe4 c6 13. g4 Bg5 14. Qd3 g6 15. Qc4 Bxc1 16. Raxc1 ) ( 9. a3 Bxc3 10. Nxc3 d5 11. Bb5 a6 12. Ba4 b5 13. Nxe4 dxe4 14. Bb3 Nc6 15. Be3 ) 9... Bxc3 10. Nxc3 Bg6 11. Bd3?! ( 11. d5 e5 12. d6 cxd6 13. Nb5 Nc6 14. Nxd6 Nd4 15. c3 Ne6 16. Bd5 Rb8 ) ( 11. Bd3 Bxd3 12. Qxd3 Nc6 13. Bf4 Re8 14. Rae1 ) 11... f5 12. Ne2?! ( 12. Bf4 Nc6 13. Ba6 Ne7 14. Qd2 d6 15. Rae1 Qd7 16. Bc4 d5 17. Bd3 Bh5 ) ( 12. Ne2 Bh5 13. Be3 Nc6 14. Qd2 Qf6 15. Ng3 Bg4 16. h3 Bxh3 17. gxh3 Nxd4 ) 12... Bf7 13. c3 d5 14. Bf4 Nd7 15. Bg3 g5 16. Bb1?! ( 16. Qc2 Nf6 17. Rae1 Qe7 18. Nc1 Ne4 19. Be5 c5 20. dxc5 bxc5 21. Nb3 Rfe8 ) ( 16. Bb1 f4 17. Be1 Bh5 18. Qd2 Nf6 19. h4 h6 20. hxg5 hxg5 21. g3 Bxe2 22. Qxe2 ) 16... c5 17. Nc1?! ( 17. Bd6 Re8 18. Bc2 cxd4 19. Nxd4 Nc5 20. Be5 Rc8 21. Nb5 Nd7 22. Bd4 ) ( 17. Nc1 f4 18. Bf2 cxd4 19. Qxd4 e5 20. Qd2 Nc5 21. Bxc5 bxc5 22. Nb3 ) 17... f4 18. Bf2 e5 19. Nd3?! ( 19. dxe5 Nxe5 20. b4 cxb4 21. Re1 Qf6 22. axb4 Rfe8 23. Nb3 f3 24. Qd4 ) ( 19. Nd3 cxd4 20. cxd4 e4 21. Ne5 Rc8 22. Nxf7 Rxf7 23. Qg4 f3 24. Ba2 fxg2 25. Kxg2 ) 19... e4 20. Ne5?! ( 20. Nc1 Qe7 21. dxc5 bxc5 22. Qe2 e3 23. Be1 Rae8 24. Nb3 Bg6 25. Bxg6 hxg6 ) ( 20. Ne5 Nxe5 21. dxe5 Re8 22. Kh1 Rxe5 23. Bc2 e3 24. Qe2 Bg6 25. Bxg6 ) 20... Nxe5 21. dxe5 Qe7 22. b4?! ( 22. Qe2 Qxe5 23. Bd3 Rae8 24. Bb5 e3 25. Be1 Re6 26. Rd1 Bg6 27. Rf3 ) ( 22. b4 Qxe5 23. Be1 Rae8 24. Bc2 d4 25. Ba4 Rd8 26. cxd4 Qxd4+ 27. Bf2 e3 ) 22... Rac8 23. bxc5 bxc5 24. Ba2 e3 25. Be1? ( 25. Bxe3 fxe3 26. Bxd5 Kg7 27. Bxf7 Rxf7 28. Rxf7+ Qxf7 29. Qg4 Qf2+ 30. Kh1 e2 31. Qxg5+ Kh8 32. Qf6+ Qxf6 33. exf6 Rd8 ) ( 25. Be1 Qxe5 26. Qg4 Rfe8 27. Qe2 Rb8 28. g3 Qf5 29. gxf4 gxf4 30. Bh4 Qg6+ 31. Kh1 Qe4+ 32. Rf3 ) 25... Qxe5 26. Qg4 h5 27. Qe2 Bg6 28. Rd1 Rcd8 29. Kh1?! ( 29. Bb1 Qe6 30. Bxg6 Qxg6 31. h4 Rfe8 32. Rf3 Re4 33. hxg5 Qxg5 34. Rh3 Qg4 ) ( 29. Kh1 Bf5 30. Ra1 Bg4 31. Qa6 e2 32. Rf2 Rf7 33. Rb1 Re7 34. Qg6+ Kh8 ) 29... Kh8 30. Kg1 d4 31. cxd4 cxd4 32. Bc4 Qc5?? ( 32... Rc8 33. Bd3 Bxd3 34. Rxd3 g4 35. Bh4 Rfe8 36. Rb1 Rc7 37. Rbd1 Rc4 ) ( 32... Qc5 33. Bb4 Qe5 34. Bxf8 Rxf8 35. Bd3 Bxd3 36. Rxd3 g4 37. Rc1 Re8 ) 33. Bd3? ( 33. Bb4 Qe5 34. Bxf8 Rxf8 35. Bd3 Bxd3 36. Rxd3 h4 37. Rb3 Kg7 38. Rb5 Qe7 39. Rd5 ) ( 33. Bd3 Qc6 34. Bb4 Rf7 35. Bc4 Rfd7 36. Ba5 Rb8 37. h4 Qf6 38. hxg5 Qxg5 39. Bb4 ) 33... Kg7? ( 33... Qc6 34. Bb4 Rf7 35. Bc4 Rfd7 36. Ba5 Rb8 37. h4 Qf6 38. hxg5 Qxg5 39. Bb4 ) ( 33... Kg7 34. Bb4 Bxd3 35. Rxd3 Qf5 36. Bxf8+ Kxf8 37. Rfd1 Qe4 38. Qxh5 e2 39. Qh8+ Ke7 40. Qg7+ Ke6 ) 34. Bxg6? ( 34. Bb4 Bxd3 35. Qxd3 Qe5 36. Bxf8+ Kxf8 37. Rb1 a5 38. Rb5 Rd5 39. Rxd5 Qxd5 40. Rc1 ) ( 34. Bxg6 Kxg6 35. Bb4 Qf5 36. Bxf8 d3 37. Qf3 Qxf8 38. Qe4+ Qf5 39. Qe7 Rd7 40. Qe8+ Qf7 ) 34... Kxg6 35. Rd3?! ( 35. Bb4 Qf5 36. Bxf8 d3 37. Qf3 Qxf8 38. Qe4+ Qf5 39. Qc6+ Kf7 40. Qb7+ Rd7 41. Qb3+ Kf6 42. Rc1 ) ( 35. Rd3 a5 36. h4 g4 37. Rb3 Rf5 38. Qd3 Kf6 39. Rb7 Qc6 40. Bxa5 Rxa5 41. Rxf4+ ) 35... g4? ( 35... a5 36. Kh1 Rfe8 37. h4 Qe5 38. hxg5 Qxg5 39. Rf3 h4 40. Kg1 ) ( 35... g4 36. Bb4 f3 37. Bxc5 fxe2 38. Re1 Rf7 39. Rxd4 Rc8 40. Rd6+ Kf5 41. Bxe3 ) 36. Bb4 f3 37. gxf3?! ( 37. Bxc5 fxe2 38. Re1 Rf4 39. g3 Re4 40. Bxa7 Rd7 41. Bc5 Rd5 42. Bb4 Kf5 43. Rxe2 ) ( 37. gxf3 Qg5 38. fxg4 Rxf1+ 39. Kxf1 Qf4+ 40. Ke1 hxg4 41. Bc5 Rd7 42. Qg2 Kf5 43. Ke2 Qe4 ) 37... gxf3?? ( 37... Qg5 38. f3f2 Rxf2 39. Rxf2 exf2+ 40. Qxf2 Qc1+ 41. Be1 Re8 42. Kf1 Re3 43. Rxe3 dxe3 ) ( 37... gxf3 38. Rxf3 Qg5+ 39. Rg3 Qxg3+ 40. hxg3 Rf2 41. Qd1 e2 42. Qa4 Rf7 43. Qc6+ Kg5 44. Kg2 ) 38. Rxf3 Rxf3? ( 38... Qg5+ 39. Rg3 Qxg3+ 40. hxg3 Rf2 41. Qe1 Rf5 42. Qd1 ) ( 38... Rxf3 39. Bxc5 Rf4 40. Qd1 Re4 41. Qf3 Re5 42. Bxd4 e2 43. Qc6+ Kf5 44. Rf3+ Kg4 45. h3+ Kg5 ) 39. Qxf3?? ( 39. Bxc5 Rf4 40. Qd1 Rg4+ 41. Kh1 Re4 42. Bxd4 e2 43. Rg3+ Kf5 44. Rf3+ Ke6 45. Qb3+ Rd5 46. Rf6+ Ke7 47. Qb7+ Ke8 ) ( 39. Qxf3 Qf5 40. Qxf5+ Kxf5 41. Bc5 Ke4 42. Rd1 Rd7 43. Re1 Rc7 44. Bf8 d3 45. Kg2 ) 39... Qg5+? ( 39... Qf5 40. Qe2 Kf6 ) ( 39... Qg5+ 40. Kf1 Qe5 41. Qg2+ Kf6 42. Ke2 Rd5 43. Bf8 Rd7 44. Bh6 Rf7 45. Qf3+ Ke6 46. Qc6+ Kf5 ) 40. Qg2?! ( 40. Kf1 Qe5 41. Qg2+ Kf6 42. Ke2 Qf4 43. Bc5 a6 44. Bb6 Rd6 45. Bc5 ) ( 40. Qg2 Qxg2+ 41. Kxg2 Kf5 42. Kf3 Ke5 43. a4 Rd7 44. Bc5 Rf7+ 45. Kg3 Rd7 46. Kf3 <
jpd303

i dont know if the computer analysis of my games is flawed to say, but it suggests alternatives to my moves that put me in positions i wouldnt want to play calming such and such advantage...but the move i played led to a good position too so whatever...it never gives me any praise even though some of my sacs lead to forced mate of win of material, but its always ready to point out my "inaccuracies" and "mistakes"

bigmac30

unfortinatly i don't trust the computer analysis some of the games i played it give alternitive lines that are 4 or 5 pawns worse off still winning how can it say my play is inacurate with these numbers i havn't used this for a while though i might be better now

malurn

Jpd what level of analysis do you have access to?  When I was just a gold star member my computer analysis strength was 2200...now its supposedly 2500 since ive upgraded, but I feel that the analysis I receive now is worse then is was before!

bigmac30

i was a gold menber 2200 and 2 games a week was my limit it's like it dosn't take into accont each individual position to asess wether it is good or bad

erik

somehow the html of this page broke. oh well.

answer to your question: all software has bugs. even the computer analysis engine we use. and unfortunately, we can't fix that one. :( i hope that you will use computer analysis for what it is: a place to generate ideas and help you see things you might not otherwise see. but it isn't perfect or the end-all, be-all of analysis :D

grolich
erik wrote:

somehow the html of this page broke. oh well.

answer to your question: all software has bugs. even the computer analysis engine we use. and unfortunately, we can't fix that one. :( i hope that you will use computer analysis for what it is: a place to generate ideas and help you see things you might not otherwise see. but it isn't perfect or the end-all, be-all of analysis :D


Hmmm... Now I'm confused.

Are you talking about the bug that gives illegal moves? plenty of engines (both free and commercial ones) without such a bug. Lots. Saying you can't fix it means it's not something "home grown" but rather existing software. Well, if it's an existing piece of software that is no longer supported, just switch software. 

Illegal move bugs are rather non existent in today's engines, so it's rather strange.

 

As to the html being broken, it may be due to wrong treatment of either escape codes or html tags... If so, it may be related to the last character in malurn's last computer analysis message...:)

grolich

About the html, more probably it's due to all the closed and opened html and

tags in the computer analysis. Because the problem started immediately after he posted his long analysis message, and was non existent before on this page.
Somethign doesn't match there. That's all.

(also erik, note that when you remove that part (analysis part, html tags included, leaving only the text before it) of his message, the page fixes itself...:)
grolich

Erik, Since the weirdest activities provide loads of fun (especially if they take a few seconds), I made a quick check of this page's html. For some reason, There's a missing at the end of malurn's message (after the "quote" part). When you place one in artificially, the page is back to normal (you'll see two consecutive s there when there should be 3.

 

There are 3 divs to close:  

from the start of his message,

 



and these 2:

and

 

from the computer analysis paste.

 

Likely that the copy/paste didn't include one of the closing divs, or the computer analysis html doesn't generate properly. In any case, the exact problem/fix is an issue you're better equipped to deal with than me:)

 

I just think these issues would become more commonplace with more features and more discussion of those new features in the forums, so it seems to me like if it's not handled before long..... the forums may start looking like a junkyard...

(in addition to some darker aspects of this issue which I shall not utter here).

lopside

Imho, much stronger engines are widely available, just do your own analysis using one of them.