Is this sacrifice sound?
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The computer suggests to just give back the bishop, and take the pawn on B2 on the third move
@IMBacon - I was playing black, but you are correct in your analysis, 4. Bb3 is a decisively losing move. The continuation based upon 4. Rxb7 looks about equal, though after 5. ..Rfc8 white still has to give up a tempo to sort out the back rank issues, which would leave black slightly better (the advantage is quite small), or so it would seem. Based on this, it seems 1. ..dxc3 is objectively sound, and appears to be the best move possible.
@Jason010101 - if I'm understanding correctly, you are recommending 1. ..dxc3 2. Rxd7 cxb2 3. Rb1 Rac8 4. Rxb2 as the continuation. Clearly 4. ..Rxc4 will follow, and again white has back rank issues to work out, but this seems OK for white, as well.
Thanks to both of you for the feedback, the initial sacrifice with 1. ..dxc3 still seems to be sound, though the advantage with proper play (i.e. white gives backt he bishop) is at best modest.
Jun 29, 2018
0
#5
I would say 1...Rac8 should be played first, as it attacks the bishop first, and then black always have the pawn capture if needed. But honestly...In this position, IF played correctly, it should be a draw. So was the sac correct? If simplification was the idea, then yea its fine.
Jun 29, 2018
0
#6
Assuming that dxc3 does lead to a draw, it is definitely sound - as any other line has Black down a pawn for no compensation.
The definition of "sound" I tend to use is this: that it doesn't lose or result in a clearly weaker position than could have been obtained otherwise. At this point I was trying to make sure I didn't lose or end up down a pawn for no compensation.
As for 1. ..Rac8, 2. b3 seems to take the steam out of that attack, as then dxc3 doesn't have the all-important b2 capture to work with. Certainly playable, not at all bad, but substantially less dynamic. I tend to prefer dynamic play, and I'll admit sometimes this works to my detriment, so don't take this as criticism of the line, it is probably just as good or better overall.
That suggestion also calls my attention to the possibility of white declining the sacrifice by playing 2. b3 in response to 1. dxc3, but this gives black the time needed to save the d7 bishop, and white will have to burn some tempo later to recapture the c3 pawn.
Again, many thanks!
Just to give everyone an update, a friend of mine (who is an Expert) analyzed the possibility of 4. h4 in this situation, which comes out just about even (black is perhaps slightly better). However, he did confirm that 4. Rxb7 is drawn, and all attempts by white to save the bishop lose by force, with 4. Be2 being the best try among those options.
#9 This is what could happen:
4. Be2 Rc1+ 5. Rd1 Rxb1 6. Rxb1 Rc8 7. Rg1 Rc3 8. h3 a6 9. Kh2 Re3 10. Bc4 (saves the bishop btw)
4. h3 Rxc4 5. Rxb2 Rb8 6. Rd5 f6 7. Rd7+ Kh6 8. Kh2 a5 9. Rd6 b5
The first line is a forced draw. The second by trying too hard to win gives black a small advantage.
On the 4. Be2 line, after 7. Rg1 the correct reply for black is Rc1! After 8. Bd3 (only way to stop the b2-pawn from queening) b5!! is the move that wins for black. Shocking, but black can force a pawn onto a2 before white can mobilize either his bishop or rook. It is a forced win for black, albeit one which requires very precise play.
The 4. h3 line looks interesting, as well, supposedly 4. h4 is slightly better. But you are correct, black has a small edge in both of these lines.
7. Rg1 Rc1 8. Bd3 b5 9. Bb1 a5 10. ?
At which point I want two bites of the cherry one is Bd3 and a h4 to get the king out
and two g3 going for a Kf2 and Re1 approach
btw: In the 4. Rxb7 Rxc4 5. Rb7xb2 Rfc8 I think black has an edge
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@Rat1960, it is a tricky finish, but black wins any which way.
The full line Stockfish sees from Re2 is:
4.Be2 Rc1+ 5.Rd1 Rxb1 6.Rxb1 Rc8 7.Rg1 Rc1 8.Bd3 b5 9.g3 a5 10.Kg2 b4 11.Bb1 a4 12.f4 exf4 13.gxf4 a3 14.e5 b3 15.axb3 Rxb1 16.Rxb1 a2 and at least the a-pawn queens.
The main issue is that it takes the white king too long to approach, and when the exchange happens on b1, black will have connected passed pawns on the 7th rank against a lone rook, which is a known loss. Playing Bb1 a few moves earlier doesn't really change the situation. The white rook can't capture on c1, and the white king can't get there soon enough without dropping the rook on g1, which also loses.
I agree that 4. Rxb7 Rxc4 5. R7xb2 Rfc8 does look stronger for black, but Stockfish analyzes it to a dead draw. Probably one of those "book draws" which is hard for white to hold in practice.
The line is from 4. Be2, not Re2, obviously. Brain is in holiday mode.
???
Nov 10, 2020
0
#17
Another club game, I was playing black, and definitely weaker out of the opening, when the game came to this position:
White has just played the pawn thrust c3. It looks initially like black is simply going to lose a pawn due to the loose bishop behind the d-pawn, but the sacrifice line looked quite promising (albeit complex), so I went for it and played 1. ..dxc3, giving up the d7 bishop.
The continuation shown is what was actually played over the board, which I know is not best play, but nothing is going to save white after 6. ..Rc8!!, which wins outright. In the club, after the game, we analyzed all of the lines where white tries to save his own bishop, including alternate continuations from 4. Bb3 and also 4. Be2 (which is a more drawn-out fight, requiring very precise play for black to win), and all of them seem to be objectively lost for white.
When I played 1. ..dxc3, I got the sense that white would have to give back the bishop, but I had some concerns about the potential for 4. Rxb7, which still seems unclear (we did not study this continuation). White's back rank issues may still mean even this line works out OK for black, and declining the sacrifice with 2. bxc3 just leaves white weaker after 2. ..Bc6.
If anyone can find a way to make white come out better after 1. ..dxe3, I'd be anxious to see some analysis.