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Question on why nc6 is so weak according to stockfish

OR2005
Hi I recently played a game and wanted to know why nc6 is so awful. idk why it says it's on iphone cuz im on pc
 
 

 

Nado7044

nc6 just isn't the right way to coordinate your pieces, the knight if it was put on d7 would have had a lot more prospects with some future Nc5 or Nb6-Nc4, putting pressure on all of White's camp, he'd probably have to give up the bishop pair

IMBacon

 

ajl721x

Knight movement is critical. It has no role on c6, but on d7, you're controlling multiple squares and about to obtain a nice outpost on c5.

MatthewFreitag

Yeah in this position the knight's potential movements after Nd7 are more promising than Nc6. That being said, these aren't really the kind of mistakes you have to worry about. Worry more about finding moves like Kh7 or bringing that rook over to cover the g-file.

OR2005
IMBacon wrote:

 

I see thanks

Bab3s

The reason is both positional and concrete: in these English Attack positions, Black wants to meet Nd5 with ...Nxd5 exd5 Bf5, immediately neutralising the diagonal White's bishop most wants after exd5 happens.

However, with the knight on c6, ...Nxd5 exd5 forks knight and bishop. Because of this, Black will be forced to do something suboptimal, like taking with the bishop which allows a powerful unopposed bishop on d3, or not taking at all, which leads into the positional drawbacks of ...Nc6:

The c-file is blocked, nothing is being done to support ...d5, and there are no good maneuvers (or manoeuvres for you) for the knight

SlumChessHustler

🤔 ...Nc6 move by black...obstructs the c-file battleground avenue...as it is supposed to be the ideal development for black's artilery-tank, the queen-rook (...Rc8) 

🙄 ...Nc6 move, is not in tune of assistance in compensating the black's dark square bishop (on...Be7) which is given a timid role of defending the d6-backward pawn...as compared to its rival (Be3) of white...controlling and snipering out the dark square diagonal inside black's territory...if only the queen-knight is develop on (...Nbd7) it will give black a radar of defense as radiated by the alarming presence of queen-knight on d7 square solid-bunker defense (...Nbd7)

TwoMove

Kh7 wasn't the best move. It worked because white played Bxh6.

OR2005
TwoMove wrote:

Kh7 wasn't the best move. It worked because white played Bxh6.

I wasn't anticipating bxh6, I thought white was going to go g5

OR2005
Bab3s wrote:

The reason is both positional and concrete: in these English Attack positions, Black wants to meet Nd5 with ...Nxd5 exd5 Bf5, immediately neutralising the diagonal White's bishop most wants after exd5 happens.

However, with the knight on c6, ...Nxd5 exd5 forks knight and bishop. Because of this, Black will be forced to do something suboptimal, like taking with the bishop which allows a powerful unopposed bishop on d3, or not taking at all, which leads into the positional drawbacks of ...Nc6:

The c-file is blocked, nothing is being done to support ...d5, and there are no good maneuvers (or manoeuvres for you) for the knight

Thank you, I was trying to play bxb3 and then somehow get the knight to d4

pfren

I would not bother so much about Nbd7 being better or worse than Nc6.

Nbd7 is the better move, as whenever white plays Nd5 you can chop it and then try to attack the d5 pawn by ...Nb6 etc- but this is not critical.

But I would surely play 12...0-0 in this position only when being totally drunk: White has a killing attack on autopilot, and 13...Kh7 does not change this fact at all. As you said before, 14.g5 or 14.Nd5 or even the typical 14.Kb1 prophylaxis first (white has no reason to hurry up), and it's very unlikely that your king will survive for long.

OR2005
pfren wrote:

I would not bother so much about Nbd7 being better or worse than Nc6.

Nbd7 is the better move, as whenever white plays Nd5 you can chop it and then try to attack the d5 pawn by ...Nb6 etc- but this is not critical.

But I would surely play 12...0-0 in this position only when being totally drunk: White has a killing attack on autopilot, and 13...Kh7 does not change this fact at all. As you said before, 14.g5 or 14.Nd5 or even the typical 14.Kb1 prophylaxis first (white has no reason to hurry up), and it's very unlikely that your king will survive for long.

Yeah, castling into the potential attack wasn't very smart, what would you recommend instead of 12.0-0?

pfren
OR2005 έγραψε:
pfren wrote:

I would not bother so much about Nbd7 being better or worse than Nc6.

Nbd7 is the better move, as whenever white plays Nd5 you can chop it and then try to attack the d5 pawn by ...Nb6 etc- but this is not critical.

But I would surely play 12...0-0 in this position only when being totally drunk: White has a killing attack on autopilot, and 13...Kh7 does not change this fact at all. As you said before, 14.g5 or 14.Nd5 or even the typical 14.Kb1 prophylaxis first (white has no reason to hurry up), and it's very unlikely that your king will survive for long.

Yeah, castling into the potential attack wasn't very smart, what would you recommend instead of 12.0-0?

 

One idea is to play 12...h5, which slows white's kingside offence and postpones kingside castling for a while (and anyway, generally speaking it's safer to castle kingside in such positions with a pawn on h5 rather than h6). However, after the typical 13.Nd5, it's already apparent that the knight shouldn't be at c6 as there's no good way to capture at d5.

So, I would rather play something like 12...Na5 (and possibly ...Nc4 after that) and wait for white to show his cards. White's game is easier, but I think this is no biggie.

Not checked these lines with an engine for complex tactical shots, but I think (hope?) they are OK. 

OR2005

So something like this?

regarding the h5 variation

pfren
OR2005 έγραψε:

So something like this?

regarding the h5 variation

 

No I suggested 12...h5 (after 11...Nc6 12.0-0-0), but I think 12...Na5 is more to the point.

And in the opening, your 6...e5 is a mistake - unlike the similar line in the English attack the bishop is not on e3 but rather g5, the f6 knight is pinned and so white can well play 7.Nf5 when you are in trouble, already.

PerpetuallyPinned

The real answer to your question is because your engine source is very weak compared to others.

This will hurt your game more than anything else.

Best example I saw was your move 13...Kh7 (the brain/best move/2 minute calculation). How was that even a "good" move?

You might use the site analysis/game report for a blunder checker...but anything more will probably hurt more than help you.