Up a pawn...but almost equal?!

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zezpwn44

Here's a portion of a game form a blitz game I played today. Black seemed to have played a terrible opening, losing a pawn - but the position (at the end of the portion I'll show) is evaluated as a very small advantage for white by Houdini.

I feel like I'd be a better player if I had more of a feel for why these positions weren't really so good for the side with the extra pawn. Sure enough, I couldn't find much to do here with the white pieces - I later blundered and lost, but it was a blitz game.

Anyways - your thoughts on this?

kponds

I feel like black's position is more active than whites, and he has initiative (after white plays the forced a3).

 

The white bishop is going to struggle to be more than a tall pawn, with the blockaded e pawn blocking him, and it doesn't look like there is going to be much activity on the h4-e8 diagonal.

It's possible for white to swing the knight to d4 to try to gain some activity and maybe some exchanges, it looks freeing but not promising anything.

The b2 pawn is a major target for black.

Having to defend the e5 pawn will be a liability for white.

zezpwn44
kponds wrote:

I feel like black's position is more active than whites, and he has initiative (after white plays the forced a3).

 

The white bishop is going to struggle to be more than a tall pawn, with the blockaded e pawn blocking him, and it doesn't look like there is going to be much activity on the h4-e8 diagonal.

It's possible for white to swing the knight to d4 to try to gain some activity and maybe some exchanges, it looks freeing but not promising anything.

The b2 pawn is a major target for black.

Having to defend the e5 pawn will be a liability for white.

Yeah, I agree - but after he blundered the pawn, I felt like I made pretty much all natural moves. Hmm

ivandh

That pawn is in an awkward spot, it requires a lot of attention to hold it and it isn't doing much besides blocking your own pieces. An advanced isolated pawn can often be a liability in the middlegame.

zezpwn44
Penguinias wrote:

an easy way to analyze this kind position 

remove all pieces, if you can win this king pawns end game, it's means you have full pawn advantage, if not black should have some compensation for the pawn.

not mentioned both side have opposite bishops.  white far away from the winning position.

But without any pieces, white could win the KP end game.

MervynS

Stockfish is showing +0.62 for white after 17. a3

It looks like a long game and a lot of work for both sides

zezpwn44
MervynS wrote:

Stockfish is showing +0.62 for white after 17. a3

It looks like a long game and a lot of work for both sides

True. But isn't this the sort of position white usually aims for in this opening with an extra black pawn on d5? With that pawn having been blundered, I feel like black should be in deep trouble - but somehow it doesn't appear to be so.

 

Also, my Houdini gave it +.25 or so after 10 seconds of thinking time or so :).

Irontiger

Well, White needs to play a3 to keep his pawn, and then ...Bb3 gives Black complete control over the only open file. So it's easy to see the compensation.

But I doubt it's really enough for a pawn, frankly.

zezpwn44
Irontiger wrote:

Well, White needs to play a3 to keep his pawn, and then ...Bb3 gives Black complete control over the only open file. So it's easy to see the compensation.

But I doubt it's really enough for a pawn, frankly.

Yeah, it's not quite enough for a pawn...but it almost is. And after playing what felt like only natural moves, I felt I should have a lot more than this after my opponent blunders a central pawn in the opening

Irontiger
zezpwn44 wrote:
Irontiger wrote:

Well, White needs to play a3 to keep his pawn, and then ...Bb3 gives Black complete control over the only open file. So it's easy to see the compensation.

But I doubt it's really enough for a pawn, frankly.

Yeah, it's not quite enough for a pawn...but it almost is. And after playing what felt like only natural moves, I felt I should have a lot more than this after my opponent blunders a central pawn in the opening

See WebZero's #11 (EDIT : now #9, for some reason) for improvements over your "natural moves".

SenilePinkHipster

Just my 2 cents.

Why'd you play 9.Nxe7+? To get the bishop pair off the board? I think Nd5 is too strong to give it up for a bishop that's doing nothing.

Of course I suck so I'm not sure if this is right, but this is how I feel.

zezpwn44
Sapp wrote:

Just my 2 cents.

Why'd you play 9.Nxe7+? To get the bishop pair off the board? I think Nd5 is too strong to give it up for a bishop that's doing nothing.

 

Of course I suck so I'm not sure if this is right, but this is how I feel.

I agree with you about that - still though, I ended up in the sort of middlegame white usually aims for, minus black's central pawn. It's a little odd how white isn't completely winning

I also agree that 15. Qc3 was stronger.

GMVillads

Houdini evaluation x 2 = stockfish evaluation!

zezpwn44
GMVillads wrote:

Houdini evaluation x 2 = stockfish evaluation!

Haha

MervynS
zezpwn44 wrote:
MervynS wrote:

Stockfish is showing +0.62 for white after 17. a3

It looks like a long game and a lot of work for both sides

True. But isn't this the sort of position white usually aims for in this opening with an extra black pawn on d5? With that pawn having been blundered, I feel like black should be in deep trouble - but somehow it doesn't appear to be so.

 

Also, my Houdini gave it +.25 or so after 10 seconds of thinking time or so :).

10 seconds? Give it a minute or two. It could well be a draw for black with good play, but white with an extra pawn  and no huge defensive problems does have reason to draw it out and play for the win...unless a draw guarantees him first or a norm.

shepi13
GMVillads wrote:

Houdini evaluation x 2 = stockfish evaluation!

That's always pretty much true, assuming they both evaluate the position the same (it's not an unclear position where one engine thinks white is winning and the other thinks black is winning)

Bg3 looks like a very bad move to me. I don't know what the engine says, but tempos are important, and the bishop looks better on f4 then g3. So you have wasted a tempo to unimprove a piece. Instead you should either try to get something going on the kingside or prevent black from getting his counterplay with Qb4 on the queenside (a3, Nd4, Qe4, etc. might be more annoying for black.) Also, some earlier moves should be able to be improved, for example maybe the bishop doesn't belong on f4 in the first place, Be3 looks more natural (where the bishop isn't blocked) and there might be more productive moves than Re1/Rd1, although they are natural. Maybe you should play Nd4 at some earlier point to try to develop some initiative as well.

I don't have time to look in detail, but I feel like there should be quite a few improvements. Check your engine if you can.

shepi13

And Nxe7+ is also a bad move, as mentioned before.

shepi13

Let's me also say that if you play a wasted move like h3 instead of Bg3, at least you can meet Qb4 with Bc1. The pawns are all defended and the bishop is better on c1 than on g3 (still aims at kingside squares, such as h6).

zezpwn44
shepi13 wrote:

Let's me also say that if you play a wasted move like h3 instead of Bg3, at least you can meet Qb4 with Bc1. The pawns are all defended and the bishop is better on c1 than on g3 (still aims at kingside squares, such as h6).

That's a good point too

InfiniteFlash

Your pieces are somewhat miscoordinated and just bad in the OP


I do not see the positional trumps you have. Black has the light squares and the more active pieces, and you do not have any things other than a pawn that are in your favor. I dunno, in the long run white should be able to get a little something out of this position, but to say it should be a win is absurd.

Nxe7 is a hard move to resist, but perhaps is not the best move.

the computer recommends moves like a3....which are simply going to let black easily blockade on the light squares

I guess you have to slowly improve with a move like Ra1