What do you do in this position and what's the thinking process?

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GambitShift

In the following position there is one main move to make and then two 0.00 moves and a fourth move which is on my stockfish now evaluated at -.16 for white (essentially 0.00). How do you go about finding the top move? White to move. This is from a completed game. 

KeSetoKaiba

It depends, are you more interested in the thinking process or the "best" moves objectively speaking? If you want the best moves, then perhaps a higher rated player (or an engine) may be better to consult than me. If you want reasoning alone ("correct" or not) for analysis, then I'll give it a try happy.png

My first observation is that the position appears roughly equal to me in this "big endgame." White and Black both have 4 minor pieces, both Rooks and 5 pawns each. Maybe Black's pawns are slightly better? I say this because White has 3 pawn islands, while Black would have only 2 with ...b5 "connecting" the two islands (although perhaps not instantly good because a White Rook on the b-file can target that pawn). Another small observation is that White's pieces look slightly more coordinated/active: primarily because the a8 Rook is undeveloped and the c8 Bishop is keeping it locked in, but these things can change. As stands, the position looks fairly equal (maybe a computer can see a small edge somewhere) but I think this is pretty even from a human perspective.

Now we get into the specifics of the pieces:

Since it is White to move, I'll look at this from White's perspective. Probably the biggest thing to jump out is that the c1 Rook and the e3 Bishop are both under attack and both can't be saved. With White's "central pawn chain" on dark squares, the "Bad Bishop" is the dark-squared one, so really, I probably wouldn't mind if Black gave up the f5 Knight for the e3 Bishop. So then where do we move our c1 Rook to save it? Rc2 looks natural to guard a2 and move swiftly on the 2nd rank, but ...Nxe3 forks everything it seems! c2 and f2 Rooks (so we lose material) as well as the g4 "Good Bishop" So Rc2 appears bad for White. Rb1 also looks natural. A sample line may be: 1. Rb1 Nxe3 2. Bxc8 Raxc8 3. Rxb7+ and it looks fairly equal to me. Notice that this feels like a win for White - at least psychologically. Remember that 2 pieces were attacked at the start of this position a few moves ago, so White would be glad to emerge with even material and a fairly equal position.

However, we must think of the words from Emanuel Lasker: "When you see a good move, look for a better one." (Fun fact: this adage is often attributed to Lasker, but the chess quotation was actually circulated prior).

The obvious follow up continuation is then, "what if we don't save the c1 Rook?" Ng2! is an excellent move when you begin to see the details and so I assume this is the one move you mention is "best" (although I don't know what the other close lines you noted would be). I think Ng2! is an exclaim in my mind because in an even material endgame, we sacrifice the exchange. 1. Ng2! Bxc1 2. Bxc1 and White is down in material but I'll come back to this line later. First I want to note how 1. Ng2 Nxe3 2. Nxe3 Bxc1 3. Nd5+! wins on the spot because Black's King can't get near the d5 Knight and the f1 Rook now eyes c1.

Okay, now back to the line I'll call the "mainline." This is 1. Ng2! Bxc1 2. Bxc1 and now we realize how good White's position really is. For instance 2...Ng7 (seeking Bishop trades to activate the a-Rook upon recapture) fails to 3. Rf7+ and picking up the g7 Knight. Here we learn that the "pin" of the f5 Knight is actually significant in this position because Black can't really move this Knight without opening the f-file where a White Rook is already there to pounce. Continuing the "mainline" would probably go 2...Ke8 (or ...Kf8, I am not sure; but it is like Black is practically in zugswang, so we'll just pick some King move). 3. e6 and now the passed pawn on e6 can create some threats while it is defended by the g5 Knight.

Even here though, White's gaining advantage (unless I missed something [which wouldn't be the first time lol]) is only slight and probably still fairly even. Perhaps a higher rated player can pick up where I left off, but I don't think analyzing positions like this to the centipawn really offers much. Without ideas and reasoning, choosing one line a few centipawns "better" than another means nothing if the human player can't understand the "why questions of the position" such as "why not this move?" or "why is that move terrible?" etc. 

GambitShift

"(although I don't know what the other close lines you noted would be)"

The moves were: Best = Ng2, 0.00 = Bf4 and Bc2, and close behind was -.15 (after depth 38 on my computer) Nc2

 

I am going to try to put what you said in the board tool if I can. You might want to do this also when you comment because it is very hard to follow what you are saying in paragraph form as you did. When I list ideas I usually provide a chess board tool highlighting the points made in visual format. 

GambitShift

So, regardless if you played Ng2 or Nc2, it seems like you could still push the king to e8. It is also showing b5 instead. I think Stockfish is evaluating Ng8 bad because if you are down you probably don't want to give up material. It is showing a significant loss in evaluation. Generally, I have found retreating knights usually favors the opposition if there is a better move. In this case it is showing to play Ke8 immediately.

 

 

Shayaan101

 

Shayaan101

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find the odd letter

Shayaan101
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drmrboss

Your engine/ hardware is totally useless or you did not give enough time for calculation.

In my droidfish , 27 seconds on 148 million nodes, depth 26/62, white is likely forced win with +2.00 evaluation on Ng2.

 

GambitShift

@Shayaan101

 

Please remove at least 6 and 7 and I will unblock you. I don't know what a KGA line has to do with this thread. You might want to remove 5 too. If you don't I will report you to the chess.com authorities and you will be sorry.

GambitShift
drmrboss wrote:

Your engine/ hardware is totally useless or you did not give enough time for calculation.

In my droidfish , 27 seconds on 148 million nodes, depth 26/62, white is likely forced win with +2.00 evaluation on Ng2.

 

 

 

We have already established Ng2 is the best. Try explaining why.

TrainerMeow

This should be quite easy for experienced players, using basic techniques of elimination.

Below is my thinking process. I had no clue White is better until the 5th step.

1) There's nothing White can do to avoid material loss. Here Nc2, Ng2, Bd2, Bf4, Bxf5 and Rxf5 loses an exchange, while other moves would lose even more material.

2) White has to attack or he will simply lose after Black consolidates.

3) How do we attack? Apparently d5 and g6 are the main weaknesses in Black's camp. A knight may simultaneously reach both pawns on f4. Therefore Ne1-g2-f4 looks like a good plan. A little calculation would tell that 23.Ng2 Nxe3 24.Nxe3 followed by 25.Nxd5+ is good for White.

4) Put 23.Ng2 aside for the moment and consider the alternatives. Taking on f5 gets eliminated first as it allows Black to simplify the position. 23.Nc2 is eliminated because the knight belongs to somewhere else. Bishop moves are eliminated because they are a waste of tempo in comparison to 23.Ng2.

5) Now we return to 23.Ng2 and calculate a bit further. Black has nothing other than taking the rook: 23...Bxc1 24.Bxc1 Ke8 (how else is Black going to defend his pawns?) 25.Nf4 Nce7 (or 25...Nfe7) 26.Bf3 wins the d5-pawn. 24...Be6 25.Nxe6 Kxe6 26.Nf4 is an immediate win.

These are enough for me to decide on 23.Ng2. More calculation only after playing out the 24th move.

GambitShift

"This should be quite easy for experienced players, using basic techniques of elimination."

Yea, that is a key point I intentionally left out to see what people would say. I was thinking of asking the same question as "How do you know what to play WITHOUT using deductive reasoning?" But now that you have addressed it, I can then ask the follow up question to that. 

 

How do you know when to use this deductive reasoning and forget the moves that you think are more practical? Ng2 is not a common move. Usually the bishop will go to b2 or g2 for white. The knight is kind of a meandering central piece. So, to feel comfortable with Ng2, you have to have some confidence in rejecting the other moves. 

 

"2) White has to attack or he will simply lose after Black consolidates."

Can you expand on that? What do you mean by consolidates? Trading down or is there some direction to the pieces you are referencing? Perhaps, something else.

 

"Apparently d5 and g6 are the main weaknesses in Black's camp."

Ok, I am starting to see reason to go to Ng2 and not Nc2 in that case. Perhaps g6 is best arrived with the knight, but how do you know the LSB can't eyeball the d5 weakness? For the moment at least, there is a knight blocking g6 from advancing. This might dovetail in with number 2. If you can conclude you have to attack, then maybe it is clearer that you want to go to f4.

 

"23.Nc2 is eliminated because the knight belongs to somewhere else."

What are you using to arrive at that conclusion? The g6 pawn? Or are you stating because Ng2 to Nf4 can attack 2 weak pawns, that is better than anything singular that Nc2 could achieve?

TrainerMeow

"Ng2 is not a common move ...... So, to feel comfortable with Ng2, you have to have some confidence in rejecting the other moves."

I don't consider Ng2 an uncommon move. In many QP openings ...Nf6-h5-g7 is standard procedure to support the ...f7-f5 pawn push. But yes, confidence in your choice is always necessary.

"Can you expand on that? What do you mean by consolidates?"

Consolidation is, for the most part, winning a won game. In the following example Black, who is up a healthy exchange, ties White up on the h-file, before improving his pieces to the maximum and break through in a decisive manner. Disclaimer: imperfect play from both sides.

"...... But how do you know the LSB can't eyeball the d5 weakness?"

That's something we think about later. For the time being the bishop is doing a nice job on g4.

"...... Are you stating because Ng2 to Nf4 can attack 2 weak pawns, that is better than anything singular that Nc2 could achieve?"

Yeah this was the point.

KovenFan

First I would analyze the position a bit. The position is mostly closed for now, black has weak pawns on d5 and g6 while white has a possibly weak pawn on h3 and a central pawn majority which includes a passed pawn on the e file.

Next I have to select candidate moves. Two of white's pieces are being simultaneously attacked and I can't save both of them, this fact serves as my candidate cue i.e what I base my selection of candidate moves on. I looked for a tactical solution but couldn't find one mostly due to the nature of the position(the position is closed and a good number of my pieces aren't active). To keep the material loss to a minimum since it can not be avoided the three moves I saw were Bc2, Bf4 and Ng2.

I can discard 1.Bf4 since it allows 1...Ng3 2.Rf2 Bxg4 3.hxg4 Rh1+ 4.Kg2 Bxc1 5.Bxc1 Rah8 where apart from being down the exchange has allowed black to activate most of his previously inactive pieces. 1.Bd2 on the other hand doesn't allow this since after 1...Ng3? I have 2.Rf7+ gaining the needed tempo and stopping me from losing the exchange. So I then looked at 1.Bd2 Bxc1 2.Bxc1 and trying to calculate deeper from here would be useless for now since the position shifts more to battle of plans. Black would like to open up the queenside and white would like to put pressure on d5 and g6 and maybe try advancing his passed pawn.

All that's left is 1.Ng2. But then after 1.Ng2 Bxc1 2.Bxc1 we are just open a tempo from the 1.Bd2 line. What I mean is after 1.Bd2 Bxc1 2.Bxc1 white would like to get his knight to either e3 or f4 but it is still on f1 but after 1.Ng2 Bxc1 2.Bxc1 we have the same position with the only difference being white's knight is closer to its ideal square being on g2. This is enough to select 1.Ng2. 

KeSetoKaiba
GambitShift wrote:

"(although I don't know what the other close lines you noted would be)"

The moves were: Best = Ng2, 0.00 = Bf4 and Bc2, and close behind was -.15 (after depth 38 on my computer) Nc2

 

I am going to try to put what you said in the board tool if I can. You might want to do this also when you comment because it is very hard to follow what you are saying in paragraph form as you did. When I list ideas I usually provide a chess board tool highlighting the points made in visual format. 

Partly I didn't because most of my analysis is on a still position and not on moves (at least not until later) and also because I didn't know I would write as much as I did. Regardless, here is my same message from post #2, but in pgn diagram format happy.png

p.s. I'll break it up into 2 diagrams because I want the order I was thinking of the lines to be preserved the best they can. Bonus points to the analysis from @TrainerMeow because they utilized process of elimination in a similar way to what I did.

Hope this reformatting of my earlier message makes understanding it more clear, but I also think there is value in reading annotations in paragraph format because chess books do not have the luxury of moving chess.com diagrams like we have happy.png