I agree the end position in my "analysis" is probably a win for white.
chesskingdreamer is incorrect. The final position is a draw. A simple check with Houdini shows this.
ok, intuition isn't always reliable I guess.
I agree the end position in my "analysis" is probably a win for white. I just didn't want to look any further and got satisfied with "at least a draw for white" since black had chances to draw earlier.
I also agree white needs to be careful to not let blacks rook get too powerful, it was just a random feeling from me that once I had a quite solid plan for white it felt a bit difficult for black. I mean if the game would continue like below I actually prefer white.
Yep. this is what I was trying to analyze. Thanks, Martin0
PS.learning2mate, please note that Martin0 showed how Re2 is best. But even then white is fine.
I'm not sure he showed why Re2 is best, he just showed a line that I already talked about, white defends f2 pawn and e1 square with the knight. Black will have to play Ra2 then to a1 and then back over to the kingside. Certainly is playable, but not for the reasons you asserted and not necessarily best.
I'm not sure he showed why Re2 is best, he just showed a line that I already talked about, white defends f2 pawn and e1 square with the knight. Black will have to play Ra2 then to a1 and then back over to the kingside. Certainly is playable, but not for the reasons you asserted and not necessarily best.
The problem is: the knight on d3 both blocks the d-file and defends f2. So neither of our lines allow us to break through with the rook.
What? My original line was Kc3 c6 Nb4 Rd1. Rook is in. If you are suggesting Kc3 c6 Ne3 then I'm happy as black, white is stuck defending. Ke5 next move looking to go Ke4 with the threat of Rd3. Keep in mind I can play Rd2 if white king moves away from c2 or c3, and if f3 next then black gets to d1 by Kf4 attacking the knight that is not longer defended.
I'm not sure what is best. I think black should play g5 at some point to prevent white from playing h4 (h4 is a very solid move which for example let white respond Rh1 with g3).
Yes, although I worry exchanging kingside pawns for black so I'm more cautious of advancing them but probably g5 would be needed somewhere soon there. I was thinking the black king could run over there in some lines and break and pawn chain white might try though.
This is a good endgame study, people need to post more of these!
When I mentioned g5 I was thinking in slow lines like when black plays Kd6. I hadn't looked at Kc3 c6 Nb4 Rd1. That looks really scary for white.
Yeah I was meaning in terms of my last line, Kc3 c6 Ne3 Ke5.
Kc3 c6 Nb4 Rd1 Nxc6+ By the time you eat my pawns I'll have three connected (maybe two if a2 falls.) passers and wil be close to promoting.
right... it's a pawn race as i said. black races the king pawn and white the queen pawn(s). Black then uses the rook to sacrifice on the white pawn, either delaying white's promotion enough to promote first, or queening first and then using the queen to prevent white from promoting.
you have to remember that black still has the ability to use it's king to also slow white's pawn advance down, where white will have difficulty using the knight to slow black's promotion run. i think black would be fine in that sequence, if not better (especially in a blitz game!).
That isn't true. I'm gonna eat both your pawns way before you can even eat one of mine. I have three connected passers which are much more advance than yours. I still suggest the idea Re8-e2 as being better and faster than c6 and Rd1.
We've been over this already. Re8 Re2 isn't faster, white has time to block the entry points with the knight and king. After Kc3 c6 Nb4 Rd1 Nxc6 black plays Rh1. I assure you I will wins the g-h pawns in the next several moves in timing the loss of my queen side pawns. Then it's a pawn race and unless white takes time to bring the knight all the way over to the kingside black's h pawn runs unhindered. black moves the rook to the queenside to harass/sacrifice on white's most advanced pawn and will probably queen first. then it'll be up to whether white can promote a queen or not.
Uh, sorry, Nxc6 is check.
i realize that, the point i made was that black will be playing Rh1. I wasn't giving an exact line I was stating the position and then what black will be doing afterwards.
White will win both of black's pawns while black will only win the f-pawn. (Rh1 h3 rh2 g3 Rxf2) White has three connected passers and should win.
Ok let's give a hypothetical line- Kc3 c6 Nb4 Rd1 Nxc6+ Kd6 Nb4 Rh1 h3 Rh2 g3 Rxh2 (each have won a pawn), then if Nxa6 Rxa2. So each have won two pawns, white knight needs to move and black will be playing something like Rg2 and go after the g-h pawns. I have no idea how white is going to win there, chances to draw are possible I think though.
My point- c6 followed by Rd1 is playable and gets the rook attacking the white king pawns right away. It certainly is faster than the Re8- Re2 plan. What happens after the rook goes down to d1 is up to white, but I doubt he can defend the kingside and will have to play on the queenside quickly to counteract blacks kingside play.
I agree the end position in my "analysis" is probably a win for white. I just didn't want to look any further and got satisfied with "at least a draw for white" since black had chances to draw earlier.
I also agree white needs to be careful to not let blacks rook get too powerful, it was just a random feeling from me that once I had a quite solid plan for white it felt a bit difficult for black. I mean if the game would continue like below I actually prefer white.