A potential hole in the "timeout vs insufficient checkmate material"

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Avatar of LM_player

In the diagram given above.

Despite white's material advantage, he managed to stumble into a forced mate.

No matter what he moves, it ends in checkmate...

 

However, If white simply waits out HIS OWN timer.

It ends in a DRAW by "insufficient checkmate material VS timeout"

the reason for it ending in a draw is because black only has one knight. (obviously)

 

It was clear that black was going to win by checkmate though.

But white was able to escape using the clock system.

 

Could this be a hole in the system?

Is there something that I am missing?

Avatar of LM_player

Or is there a rule for this that i am not aware of?

Avatar of LM_player
Btw. I am talking about on chess.com and not OTB.
Avatar of yomama_69

It takes all material on the board, not just blacks material against a lone king

Avatar of LM_player

Does it?

Avatar of BeepBeepImA747
Black has sufficient mating material, because white has at least 1 pawn, making blacks horse sufficient to mate. If white ran down the clock, he would lose.
Avatar of LM_player

okay thanks.

Avatar of LM_player

This problem has never actually happened to me. Its just an idea i came up with.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

There are certainly some edge cases where the chess.com rules for insufficient material will be nonsensical but those are likely very, very rare. The cases where the chess.com rules and FIDE and/or USCF rules differ are larger but still probably a low percentage of timeouts are impacted by them.

Avatar of LM_player

It is unlikely for a position like this to arise. But it can happen.

Avatar of notmtwain
LM_player wrote:

It is unlikely for a position like this to arise. But it can happen.

You are speculating. Please come back and report to us when you have actual evidence. 

Avatar of LM_player

I'm simply asking if it is possible.

Avatar of LM_player

*if it is how the rules work

Avatar of Lagomorph
LM_player wrote:

It is unlikely for a position like this to arise. But it can happen.

 

Yes we know it can happen...probably once in a thousand years. Do you think that makes it worthwhile for chess.com to completely re-write their program to account for it?

 

Chess.com are very clear what the rules are on this site for insufficient material on timeout. If you dont like them, you have a choice.

Avatar of LM_player

I know it is unlikely... thats why I made a post about it.

Its still an interesting possibility, that is why i decided to share it with you guys.

Avatar of IcyAvaleigh

True. Another rare thing I don't think is fair on the internet is a certain position like only white pawns on b4, e4 and h4, black pawns on b5, e5 and h5 and the kings on their own sides. OTB you can claim a draw, on the internet you will have to play 50 moves or the one who times out will lose. I understand it's hard to program these things but it would have been awesome and "fair" :)

Avatar of woton
Rook_w wrote:

sadly this hole had been on chess.com for 10 years, so it's not going away.

This is not a hole.  Chess.com intentionally used a simple method for determining insufficient material to avoid the complications of evaluating whether checkmate is possible by any series of legal moves.  When we are playing on Chess.com, Chess.com rules apply.

 

Note:  During the development of the rule, there were discussions on how to implement USCF's "insufficient losing chances" rule and FIDE Article 10.2.a (now Appendix G).  The Chess.com "rule" is a compromise that is reasonable for an on-line game.

Avatar of knighttour2

Positions like this do happen.  There are known mating patterns with K+N v K+ rook pawn. Check out this blitz that I won on another site a few days ago



Avatar of LM_player
That is an excellent example knighttour2!
On move 55 he could've just waited for his timer to run out, and it would've been a draw!
Avatar of LM_player
See Lagomorph? It's not that rare.