Bored

Going back to previous posts concerning attacking the castled position, both with long range pieces and a pawn storm: How would you guys assess the following position?

Positionally I believe that black has the advantage.  White has to move the bishop, if he takes the night, it allows black to get another attack on the king side, and continue pushing the pawns, if i were black i would probably move the knight out of the way, to have the rook guarding the h rank for the pawns, i would also like to castle right into a less open position, even though white does not have any attack on my king anywhere. I find castling later in the game can sometimes get you out of trouble.  White is also very congested and cannot attack black easily.  I do like the position though.  I think i will run it through rybka3 to see who is ahead positionally.

Thanks for the new posts

Wonk

Bur_Oak,

     After having rybka analyze the position it showed me a few lines, all of them starting like this:  1.Nf3xe5 Bc7xe5 2. Qe2xh5+ Ke7 3.Bf4xe5 Qb8xe5. Resulting in black being down a pawn.  I should have looked at the position more than the attack when i first looked at your comment.

Wonk

Let's leave Rybka out of this for the moment. This was a live game, 45|0 time control.

I think your assessment was in line with Black's thinking. White played Bxe5. (First blood at move 17!)

Didn't see your post. The game went similarly, with different move order. As I said, 17. Bxe5. What followed was 17. ... Bxe5 18.Nxe5 Qxe5 19.Qxh5+ Ke7.

What are your ideas for the game continuation. Does black have compensation for the pawn with the half-open h file? How should the game go?

Bur_Oak

     Yes i do believe that it is a lot better positionally for black, ignoring the queen taking the h pawn.  I believe that if black continues to attack with the pawn storm then black will probably win.  Also the taking of the pawn was one of the reasons I like the Knight moving out of the way for the rook to gaurd the h pawn, although I did not see that the pawn could be taken.  I like that all the pawns are still there, so you can also move the f pawn for an even stronger pawn storm on the king.  Who played this game?

Wonk

Bur_Oak,

     I wrote my most recent comment while you were entering the game.  Did white or black win, White has a material advantage, but black has a stronger attack on the king side,  even though whites king has a nice defence I wouldn't be surprised if either white or black won the game.  Who did win the game?

Wonk

Once again, I believe your thinking was in line with Black's, and indeed, it seems like the way to go. You'll probably like the position a few moves later. (This was played on this site, White rated 1467 prior to the game, Black 1396.)

Bur_Oak

     I do like the position a like the position a lot better now.  I also still like moving the knight out of the way.  I liked the position more for black when the h pawn was there, but i suppose it was unavoidable.  I can see a few different ways for black to attack the king side. This is a strong position for black and I believe that in this position they will probably win no matter what. 

Okay, I won't leave you in suspense. Here's the rest of it.

Bur_Oak

     So white won.  It is a nice game, black gave up too many pawns.  I believe he could have won if he hadn't lost all of his pawns.  It was a nicely played game by white, black did not gaurd his pawns well enough, especially the one's in the pawn storm.  He had a nice attack, but the defence on his attacking pieces fell apart.  I like it much better for black if they had moved the knight.

Wonk

With the d4 push and the attacks on the queen, black had little opportunity to move the knight earlier. (Prior to that point, it's own pawns were occupying 2 of the 3 squares it could move to!)

To be fair, I also don't think black "gave up" the pawns so much as, as you said, failed to guard them. Of course, guarding them takes time and preparation -- time the opponent may use to defend or counterattack. Timing is crucial.

The techniques are valid ways to attack a castled position, but they are not a sure win if the opponent sees the threat and has the skill to defend. Castled kings can be attacked and checkmated. They can also stay in the center and be checkmated, sometimes more easily! Castling cannot be considered "bad" because it's not permanently safe.

The pawnstorm is also a well respected attacking theme, but as you already knew, there's more to it than just shoving pawns at the opponent. I've encountered more pawn storms on this site than I ever have playing friends or the local tournament. I've weathered most of them. I've also tried a few, and found them often tricky to manage against an experienced opponent.

I had read the thread prior to playing this game, and thought you'd get a kick out of it, considering the diagonal threats and the rook-backed pawnstorm. I felt I had to tread carefully against a worthy opponent, but was never in panic mode. It seemed not only defensible, but I felt I could diffuse elements of his attack, improve my position, and counterattack. While I'm sure stronger players could demolish my delusions, I was playing the opponent at hand with the clock ticking (and gaining time as his attack dwindled and my threats persisted).

*sigh beginners forums...the puzzle is ridiculous. black will defend the mate just perfectly fine, so why not just take the effing queen!??

Laexpress12

     You should take the queen, the tactic that was made was not well made, but it was supposed to be used to demonstrate a good attack.   I also did not make the tactic so you should not criticize me for it.

Wonk

Bur_Oak

     As I said in one of my earlier comments, you have to know when to castle, some openings are better to castle early, and in some you shouldn't castle at all.  I also have realized from playing chess that there are two very valuable pieces in a pawn storm, the rook, the queen, and sometimes a knight or a bishop.  Also you must use the pawn storm a lot and get comfortable with it.  On this website i have used many different attacks out of the opening that I normally use, and this website has helped me experiment with a few different attacks, because it seems that whenever I get very good with the attack people learn to defend better against the attacks that I use, or my rating gets higher and the higher rated players have learned to defend against the attacks that I commonly use.  Thanks again for the comments.

Wonk

Wonk,

My comments regarding castling were directed at the other fellow who seemed to think it was universally bad. As to the pawnstorms, the comments were general statements, not meant as an argument. As this thread in general is currently more likely to be followed by relative beginners and novices, I meant to indicate to such players that it is a valid technique, but not an easy one. (Pushing pawns with reckless abandon isn't going to cut it.) It's clear we agree on that.

Bur_Oak

     Yes we do both agree on our thoughts of castling and on our thoughts on pawn storms.  My earlier comment wasnt so much an argument as another statement of my opinion on castling and pawn storms, for anyone who happens to read my forum.  I am sad that only beginners and novices will read this, but it is a true statement, at least they might learn something from this forum.

Wonk

ok i admit how bad the puzzle at the beginning is so here it is in an actual game

LMAO that puzzle was too easy not even a 900 would fall for such a easy checkmate

Jetfighter

     The game shows the same attack that you attempted to show us in your puzzle.  The attack is very common in tactics, but in the game you showed us you were losing and you won by attacking the king side.  I agree that the tactic in the game is usefull, but black could have easily defended against your attack, so I don't want you to think that castling is bad, I agree that castling can sometimes end out being attacked by the oponent, but i also think that castling can end out in a very strong defensive position.  Whether or not to castle depends on how the particular person plays chess. I prefer to castle in the middle of the game, if I castle, so I can connect my rooks.  I normally castle in the direction that is the best defensively, or the only way that I can castle.  You must learn how you play the game, so that you can play the game better.

Wonk

I would like to ask people to stop commenting on how bad the first problem, we all agree that the problem wasn't constructed as well as it could have been, and we don't need to be reminded of the fact, I would like people to submit new positions, or talk about something in one of the other positions that we have not talked about yet.  It would be much more helpful to do that than to criticize the problem on page 1.

Wonk