Calculate on THEIR time or Yours?

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Master_Po

I am playing in my first OTB tourney this weekend.  I found myself calculating 95% on THEIR time, while their clock was running - and found moves to their probable moves.  About 50% of the time I had my move ready when they moved.  50% I had guessed wrong.  So when they moved, I immediately made MY move. 

   After my first 2 games, both players said I play too fast, after I asked them to give impressions of my game. (both were I'd guess 200 pts higher than I think my rating is, they were 1500 players. (I gave them a good run, but lost both games.)  I don't think they understood what I was doing, that I had guessed their probable moves and already calculated my response.

    Is this a decent way to play, or do most of my calculating when MY clock is running? or does it not matter?

   Please explain your answer and reasoning.

(time was 40/90 so no problem on time. The one opponent played close to a 5 hour game with an old man who was rated 1900.  I watched both of them play, and very often I could see the move they would make in 15 seconds, whereas they took 5 minutes to MAKE that same move.)

Here_Is_Plenty

I used to like the idea of "think on their time, check on your own" but it has problems.  We, except for a rare few, do not visualise all the changes on a clear board in our mind.  It is hard to assess ramifications from the board set out in front of us, never mind from a hypothetical position.  If we could be sure what their next move would be then it would be easier; even when we see the next move for them can we be sure that our next move after that will be accurate?  It is hard enough to find a good move from the initial position of looking.  Calculation can be problematic - many times I have strained and strained to see the best line through complications only for it to falter with something I would have had to anticipate 4 or 5 moves earlier.  Also it is not always about this then that then this etc, sometimes it is about structure, lines opening and closing, potential activation of pieces and so on.  Chess is not tic tac toe.  Use your time till you get to GM level then reassess your stance.

atarw

You know, if you have extra time, just double check your move, see if it has any flaws, you have maybe 1-2 hrs, right?

Kaluki

Figure out which one suits you best. Perhaps a balance of the two that suits you is ideal. Thinking on your opponent's turn obviously gives you more time to work with, but could possibly cause some mental burnout due to "what-ifs" added to your thought process.

What worries me is that you seem to be thinking on EVERY move, which I don't recommend. Use a good amount of time to create a thoughtful plan, and don't spend so much when just executing it.

bobbyDK

my advise is use your opponents time to think.
but also to visualize an ideal placement for your pieces.
think about the ideal placement for your knights and think if they could go there in 3 or 4 moves. 

maybe you will get an idea to aim for and a new plan.  
 

Here_Is_Plenty

I like that way of thinking, bobby, but in practical terms it can be difficult to maintain mental balance when switching between concentrated calculation and abstract assessment.  I think the best players learn to build the positional analysis into their thought patterns so their actual calculations are aimed at the positional ends they seek.  I think it depends on the time controls.  In blitz thinking on opponents time would be perfect to keep up momentum.  In the case that the OP quotes though, the key point must be that he lost the games after "calculating" on their time from ghost positions - the shallow evaluations he must therefore be making (sorry no offence intended) must be worked on.  More concentration for longer periods would be needed and it would be difficult when just starting out in tourneys to switch on/off to actively try to visualise then calculate etc and maintain that over at least 5 games over a couple of days.

EscherehcsE

You forgot to mention how much time you left on your clock in those two games. If both of your opponents said you played too fast, and you lost both games, then maybe they know something. Wink

For me, I spend more calculation time on my clock. Calculating on your opponent's time is beneficial, but it's less efficient, since you'll guess wrong on your opponent's response part of the time. If you do other things during the game, like getting up for a drink, bathroom break, stretching, thinking about your game plan, etc., it's better to do these non-calculating tasks on your opponent's time.

MrEdCollins

Congrats on playing in your first otb tourney.  That's great.

Now, according to your post, 50% of the time you are moving instantly!  What time controls are you using?  If this is a slow, 40 moves in 2 hours type of time control, then you ARE moving WAY too fast!

There's a famous chess quote that goes something like,  "When you find a good move, stop and look for a better one."

After your opponent moves, even if you predicted he would move where he did, you have to stop and recalculate everything.  Grandmasters aren't moving instantly.  Why should you?

VLaurenT

Hi Davy,

First of all congratulations on having played your first real chess tourney ! I hope you enjoyed the experience Smile

Regarding your question, I don't think calculating on your opponent's time is good or bad per se. It may or may not work for you. What I would be concerned with is rather : are the moves you've been playing as a result of these calculations good or not, and would you consider them better on average than the moves you've played when thinking longer on your time ?

I remember playing a GM some time ago who answered all my moves a tempo except one : when he had to choose between two pawn pushes to rip open my king cover. Looked like he wanted to play the very best of the two... Wink

glamdring27

I have only played 1 otb tournament in the last 15 years (a couple of months ago after my previous ones were when I was at school) so my advice comes more from what I would suggest rather than based on a large practical experience.

Definitely you should think on both your time and your opponents, but what you think about is likely different.  On my opponent's time I like to try to guage what his response will be, but if he has a number of possible responses I won't go into much depth and prefer to use that time considering what I would like to do with my own pieces in an ideal world.  Then when my opponent moves hopefully he makes a move I had considered, but now I will consider it in more depth.

It is a simple matter of mathematics as much as anything.  The depth with which you can think quickly gets exponential in complex positions where each move could be met with a number of intelligent responses (or even if not, you still have to ascertain that there are only a couple of intelligent responses).  Starting when it is your opponent's move you have an unknown right at the start of your calculation and can't possibly calculate all possibilities to the same depth as you can once your opponent has made his move and you have just one of those paths to calculate in further depth.

Think in breadth on your opponents move and in depth (as well as some breadth) on your own move is what I would say.

VULPES_VULPES

I ALWAYS think on my opponent's time, partially because I need a lot of thinking time by the time I get to the endgame, so I invest my time for that phase. 

Even after he moves, I still go over a final evaluation, then make the best move I find. I think that system makes the most sense.

Master_Po

Just got back, the tournament is over, and whew, I'm exhausted.  My two games today lasted 2.5 and 2 hours respectively.  Won one and threw away a draw, I think,  from a 1500 player on the second.  After the experience, I think I'm about a 1350 OTB player.  I had the 2nd opponent, a 1500 player, on the run for most of the game, that is I had the intiative for and hour and 45 mins., but on one critical move, I had 2 canidate moves and think I chose the wrong one as it turned out.  I came to a conclusion on when to calculate.  When there a many different moves they could make, I completely ignored any thinking or calculating and got up, took a walk, etc. and waited for his move to start thinking.  When he obviously, probably only had a move or two to make, then I WOULD think on his time.  I didn't make any blunders today and was happy of my play.  (the first two players were obviously better than me BTW, one actually had a rating I found out of 1700, and I don't think my thinking was too shallow, Mr. Scotland, but it's something I should reconsider.)  Thanks for all the feedback, as I think I've found a happy norm between the two times to think.

Thanks Mr. Collins, what a blast!  My first game today was the highlight of the tourney, perhaps I'll post it later.  We were very close for 2 hours and 15 minutes.  Finally, like a boa constrictor, I did my longest (longest for me, don't laugh) line, 6 moves ahead.    She was about to take my rook with a pawn and get a 2nd Queen on her next move, but I saw for my move, a knight move to support my Queen the next move, check, check, check, knight sac, and mate.  I couldn't believe it, and ran it two more times and it still seemed to work, all this time if it doesn't work, she gets a 2nd Queen with her next move, so what the heck, went for it.  She immediately scooped up the knight sac and then WHAM! It worked.  1-0. 

    I love chess!!  Cool 

waffllemaster
DavyWilliams wrote:

I am playing in my first OTB tourney this weekend.  I found myself calculating 95% on THEIR time, while their clock was running - and found moves to their probable moves.  About 50% of the time I had my move ready when they moved.  50% I had guessed wrong.  So when they moved, I immediately made MY move. 

   After my first 2 games, both players said I play too fast, after I asked them to give impressions of my game. (both were I'd guess 200 pts higher than I think my rating is, they were 1500 players. (I gave them a good run, but lost both games.)  I don't think they understood what I was doing, that I had guessed their probable moves and already calculated my response.

    Is this a decent way to play, or do most of my calculating when MY clock is running? or does it not matter?

   Please explain your answer and reasoning.

(time was 40/90 so no problem on time. The one opponent played close to a 5 hour game with an old man who was rated 1900.  I watched both of them play, and very often I could see the move they would make in 15 seconds, whereas they took 5 minutes to MAKE that same move.)

Many times the move I think I want to make is the move I end up making.  And I think this is true for the great majority of players.  I spend time looking for the BEST move, and of course making extra sure my move is safe.

But dang man, you ever make a tactical mistake or go over your game with a computer which shows you a way you could have won and get that feeling THAT'S NOT HARD, I COULD HAVE SEEN THAT!

What gives the separation between 1500 and 1800 (or IM and GM) is a small fraction of the total moves, it's just in a few key or critical positions the 1800 (or GM) will find a key idea or the correct tactical move.  It's easy to find OK moves fast (that's what blitz players do all day) but it's that extra bit... the "when you find a good move look for a better one" [Lasker] idea that has you play your best.

---------------------

If they're taking a long time, then you'd be wasting time not calculating something... don't just sit there and doze off (although it's not bad to give you mind a break now and then, walk around the playing hall and such).

Silman (although he may have taken it from someone else) gave the advice to use your opponent's time to take stock of the position, what are your and his weaknesses, what are the general ideas you're going for.  Then on your time calculate.

Boheme

"ponder on"

Bubatz

I too follow the rule: Plan on their time, calculate on yours. 

The most simple reason is this: If you calculate on their time, you have a much bigger tree to calculate through - they prune it for you by making their chosen candidate move. The only time I do some calculation on their time is when I'm done planning and they are still thinking ... 

b3nnyhaha

^what Bubatz said. perhaps an exception is if their next move is forced and they for whatever reason don't play it immediately.

Master_Po

"you have a much bigger tree to calculate through - they prune it for you by making their chosen candidate move." Bubatz.

    Very well put.  You should be a professional writer.

    I found with one opponent, that when I DID get up and take a walk, he would sneak in a quick move to let my clock run, but would stay in his thinking position to look like he hadn't moved, so that if I looked across the room, it looked like HIS clock was running, not mine.  So I might be on a 20 minute walk, wasting time.  I'm sure this must be a common little trick.   

EscherehcsE
DavyWilliams wrote:

    I found with one opponent, that when I DID get up and take a walk, he would sneak in a quick move to let my clock run, but would stay in his thinking position to look like he hadn't moved, so that if I looked across the room, it looked like HIS clock was running, not mine.  So I might be on a 20 minute walk, wasting time.  I'm sure this must be a common little trick.   

Most people won't bother with this cheesy tactic, but some will. Never be away from your board for very long if you can help it. And when you're looking at your board from afar, don't look at your opponent, look at your clock. The plungers on the Excalibur Gametime clock will easily tell you who's on move, and some of the other digital clocks will have lights that will tell you who's on move.

If you want to see REAL acting, make a move and forget to punch your clock. Most people will glue their eyes to the board making you think that they're in deep calculation mode. They may actually be calculating, but rest assured that absolutely nothing will pry your opponent out of his seat or divert his gaze from the board. (The moral of this story is to learn to glance at your clock frequently during play. This also helps your clock management skills.)

Master_Po

Thanks for that tip Esch.  That DID happen too.  Since I'm new with clocks, I forgot to punch mine, and you're right, he was like a statue gazing at the board.  I finally saw it, have him the Tal stare and punched my clock.

glamdring27

It's easy to forget!  In my one otb tournament recently two of my opponents forgot to press their clock first move, but I pointed it out straight away to both as it's just childish and unsportsman-like not to, especially on long time controls where losing a minute at the start is basically irrelevant.

If you have an opponent who has the habit of moving quickly as soon as you get up for a walk then try to take advantage of it by going for a walk regularly (but returning fairly swiftly too!) to see if he rushes his move and makes a blunder just to try and waste some of your clock time!