Chess Engines - Ugh !!

Ugh - used to express disgust or horror.

We would be happier without their invention and presence.

Sportsmanship has taken a back seat. 

The "Spirit" of Chess has been irrevocably damaged.

Note: Thoughtful responses welcome. Spamming, senseless trolling will be dealt with.

There are positive points to be made, [ Engines increase our understanding of the game ] -

But I ask , at what price ?

Discussion of cheating is not allowed on the forums. I would also appreciate if you would explain to me what the "spirit" of chess is.

Blocked. Just like that. Notorious trolls looking for discord disappear into the aether.

A by-product of Engines is that they can be used to cheat. That is not the intent of discussion. 

Rather, does the invention of a chess engine, further chess competition between sportsman, or in the long term, hinder the community ?

Engines have just shown that humans (who create engines) are capable of extraodinary things, like solving an extremely complicated game using computational power.

Chess is still chess - two humans can still play against each other just fine, since all engine use a ridiculous amount of computing power that we can never emulate. Instead, we have a better understanding of chess than before.

Engines have done more good than harm, in my opinion.

Without engines, I would not have improved at the rate I did, because I would be stuck learning tactics slowly.

No doubt long term understanding is gained by engine analysis. 

But what of those who simply memorize lines, now +10 moves deeper by an engine, than previous lines understood by humans ? At some point, it will end. 

But was chess being played ? Or just who had the best engine and memorized the most?

At the non GM level though, it still does not matter - for the vast majority of players, playing strength will still be playing strength.

Give a 1200 an opening book - will stay play like a 1200, and will lose to a 1600 most of the time, unless the 1200 catches the 1600 in an opening theory trap (which can be totally avoided by the 1600 by playing a simpler line).

Good point. We learn/develop chess skills faster with engine analysis. 

But what's the hurry?  

Yes. The discussion is also directed towards Top level GM play. 

Would not their games take on a totally different personality, without the benefit of engines?

They sit there "Booked up" to the max, sometimes in the mood to play, or many times content to draw, because of Engine analysis.

No doubt they have 20+ llines of openings memorized. 

We're coming to the point where blitz and bullet chess rule - who would watch 12 draws (half of which are probably engine draws) when they can watch a week of Hikaru playing bullet? 

Hikaru can probably make more money streaming speed chess than playing professionally. Humans will find new ways to enjoy chess, at all levels. 

I'm just saying that chess, as a whole, will adapt to new developments. Engines will certainly chess a lot, but they won't destroy it.

RedGirlZ - "I would personally say it doesn't hinder the chess COMMNUITY in general, because the vast majority of the community is players like us. Players like Magnus are in the top 1%, but for the rest of us, I'd say it hasn't been a hinderance, at the very least. "

I can think of where the community has been damaged, in a long term perspective. Good to see no negative effects from your side. Yes. Players like us, hobbyists, need  not be overly concerned.

With that being said, the future development of chess appears to be inexorably tied to analyzing chess via an engine. The engine will most often prevail, but is this a good thing ?

Exactly. 

Capablanca's great quote can be updated, and applies today.

Chess engines should be used as we use glasses: to assist the sight, although some players make use of them as if they thought they conferred sight

It also begs the question: How powerful is God?

After all, we are the humans who invented AI and these powerful machines. To them, we are their creators - their Gods.

What if God cannot cope with the power of humans?

This is how the terminators took over...

Thank you. I will deal with it. 

Hammer is blocked. The discourse, (not necessarily here, but injecting religion is inflammatory,  has been duly noted by his other topics.) Trolling this thread, will be blocked. 

There have been many observant contributions. I think  the question, as always, comes down to degree. Engines have increased our knowledge...

but at what expense ?

Great post Skye, with an insightful perspective. 

As always, terms need defining, we may be speaking the same language or not. I'd postulate, Engines have increased our knowledge of how the game is played, acknowledging that this is but an extension of human knowledge. Conclusions get drawn, often differing, but I don't think we are that far off.

Being from the old school, I speculate what chess would be like, without Engines. 

As usual, the question is...

Is progress better?

We watch the Top players, caught up in all the hype. 

How entertaining is it really?

What if they did not have the Prep of their Engines ?

Would we not be observing an entirely different playing field?