Chess will never be solved, here's why

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playerafar

A pawn as a higher ratio of total pieces more likely to produce a win?
That seems to be contradicted by a defending King getting in front of that pawn.
Or - getting the opposition.

More important:  the difference in the number of pieces each:
and:  what types of pieces they are.

Elroch wrote:

Imperfect player guesses that game is perfect (and claims guess to be completely reliable).

Good short post - a kind of Occam's Razor description.

playerafar

The ratio of Unsolved positions increases with the number of men.
The ratio of 'wins' with more men increases ?
More men on the board can often mean more potential for mistakes.
Especially in human play.  But that could apply to the computers too.
Does.  According to earlier posts.

But that has to be distinguished from 'objectively solved already'.

Elroch
MARattigan wrote:
Elroch wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

[snip]

Failing to follow the argument, I'm afraid.

My fault, not yours. I had misunderstood. See edited post.

hlinh_0612
Hi
MARattigan
playerafar wrote:

A pawn as a higher ratio of total pieces more likely to produce a win?
That seems to be contradicted by a defending King getting in front of that pawn.
Or - getting the opposition.
...

My labels were perhaps misleading. I was speaking of a difference of  ≤1 in the sum of the values of the pieces for each side with the values Q→9, R→5, B→3, N→3, P→1 rather than, necessarily identical material or an extra pawn for one side.

I've changed the label and listed the endgames below:

 

USING UNCORRECTED SYZYGY POSITION COUNTS:

Game BR
Endgames with notional material difference at most 1 pawn(s)

# men additional to kings=0
KvK
total ESMs: 1
win % =0.00

# men additional to kings=1
KPvK
total ESMs: 1
667692 winning out of 994056
win % =67.17

# men additional to kings=2
KQvKQ, KRvKR, KBvKB, KBvKN, KNvKN, KPvKP
total ESMs: 6
20096412 winning out of 73668036
win % =27.28

# men additional to kings=3
KQPvKQ, KRRvKQ, KRBvKQ, KRNvKQ, KRPvKR, KBBvKR, KBNvKR, KBPvKR,
KNNvKR, KNPvKR, KBPvKB, KNPvKB, KPPvKB, KBPvKN, KNPvKN, KPPvKN,
KPPvKP, KQPvKQ, KRRvKQ, KRBvKQ, KRNvKQ, KRPvKR, KBBvKR, KBNvKR,
KBPvKR, KBPvKB, KBPvKN, KNNvKR, KNPvKR, KNPvKB, KNPvKN, KPPvKB,
KPPvKN, KPPvKP
total ESMs: 34
15031957290 winning out of 36932117436
win % =40.70

# men additional to kings=4
KRBPvKQ, KRNPvKQ, KBBBvKQ, KBBNvKQ, KBNNvKQ, KNNNvKQ, KBPPvKR,
KNPPvKR, KPPPvKB, KPPPvKN, KQQvKQQ, KQRvKQR, KQBvKQB, KQBvKQN,
KQNvKQN, KQPvKQP, KQPvKRR, KRRvKRR, KRBvKRB, KRBvKRN, KRNvKRN,
KRPvKRP, KRPvKBB, KRPvKBN, KRPvKNN, KRPvKBB, KBBvKBB, KBBvKBN,
KBBvKNN, KRPvKBN, KBBvKBN, KBNvKBN, KBNvKNN, KBPvKBP, KBPvKNP,
KRPvKNN, KBBvKNN, KBNvKNN, KNNvKNN, KBPvKNP, KNPvKNP, KPPvKPP,
KRBPvKQ, KRNPvKQ, KBBBvKQ, KBBNvKQ, KBNNvKQ, KBPPvKR, KNNNvKQ,
KNPPvKR, KPPPvKB, KPPPvKN
total ESMs: 52
1262729602320 winning out of 2598590952432
win % =48.59

# men additional to kings=5
KRBPPvKQ, KRNPPvKQ, KRPPPvKQ, KBBBPvKQ, KBBNPvKQ, KBBPPvKQ, KBNNPvKQ,
KBNPPvKQ, KNNNPvKQ, KNNPPvKQ, KBPPPvKR, KNPPPvKR, KPPPPvKR, KPPPPvKB,
KPPPPvKN, KQQPvKQQ, KQRRvKQQ, KQRBvKQQ, KQRNvKQQ, KQRPvKQR, KQBBvKQR,
KQBNvKQR, KQBPvKQR, KQNNvKQR, KQNPvKQR, KRRRvKQR, KRRBvKQR, KRRNvKQR,
KQBPvKQB, KQNPvKQB, KQPPvKQB, KRRBvKQB, KRRNvKQB, KRRPvKQB, KRBBvKQB,
KRBNvKQB, KRNNvKQB, KQBPvKQN, KQNPvKQN, KQPPvKQN, KRRBvKQN, KRRNvKQN,
KRRPvKQN, KRBBvKQN, KRBNvKQN, KRNNvKQN, KQPPvKQP, KRRPvKQP, KRBBvKQP,
KRBNvKQP, KRBPvKQP, KRNNvKQP, KRNPvKQP, KBBBvKQP, KBBNvKQP, KBNNvKQP,
KNNNvKQP, KQPPvKRR, KRRPvKRR, KRBBvKRR, KRBNvKRR, KRBPvKRR, KRNNvKRR,
KRNPvKRR, KBBBvKRR, KBBNvKRR, KBNNvKRR, KNNNvKRR, KRBPvKRB, KRNPvKRB,
KRPPvKRB, KBBBvKRB, KBBNvKRB, KBBPvKRB, KBNNvKRB, KBNPvKRB, KNNNvKRB,
KNNPvKRB, KRBPvKRN, KRNPvKRN, KRPPvKRN, KBBBvKRN, KBBNvKRN, KBBPvKRN,
KBNNvKRN, KBNPvKRN, KNNNvKRN, KNNPvKRN, KRPPvKRP, KBBPvKRP, KBNPvKRP,
KBPPvKRP, KNNPvKRP, KNPPvKRP, KRPPvKBB, KBBPvKBB, KBNPvKBB, KBPPvKBB,
KNNPvKBB, KNPPvKBB, KRPPvKBN, KBBPvKBN, KBNPvKBN, KBPPvKBN, KNNPvKBN,
KNPPvKBN, KBPPvKBP, KNPPvKBP, KPPPvKBP, KRPPvKNN, KBBPvKNN, KBNPvKNN,
KBPPvKNN, KNNPvKNN, KNPPvKNN, KBPPvKNP, KNPPvKNP, KPPPvKNP, KPPPvKPP,
KQQPvKQQ, KQRRvKQQ, KQRBvKQQ, KQRNvKQQ, KQRPvKQR, KQBBvKQR, KQBNvKQR,
KQBPvKQR, KQBPvKQB, KQBPvKQN, KQNNvKQR, KQNPvKQR, KQNPvKQB, KQNPvKQN,
KQPPvKQB, KQPPvKQN, KQPPvKQP, KQPPvKRR, KRRRvKQR, KRRBvKQR, KRRBvKQB,
KRRBvKQN, KRRNvKQR, KRRNvKQB, KRRNvKQN, KRRPvKQB, KRRPvKQN, KRRPvKQP,
KRRPvKRR, KRBBvKQB, KRBBvKQN, KRBBvKQP, KRBBvKRR, KRBNvKQB, KRBNvKQN,
KRBNvKQP, KRBNvKRR, KRBPvKQP, KRBPvKRR, KRBPvKRB, KRBPvKRN, KRNNvKQB,
KRNNvKQN, KRNNvKQP, KRNNvKRR, KRNPvKQP, KRNPvKRR, KRNPvKRB, KRNPvKRN,
KRPPvKRB, KRPPvKRN, KRPPvKRP, KRPPvKBB, KRPPvKBN, KRPPvKNN, KBBBvKQP,
KBBBvKRR, KBBBvKRB, KBBBvKRN, KBBNvKQP, KBBNvKRR, KBBNvKRB, KBBNvKRN,
KBBPvKRB, KBBPvKRN, KBBPvKRP, KBBPvKBB, KBBPvKBN, KBBPvKNN, KBNNvKQP,
KBNNvKRR, KBNNvKRB, KBNNvKRN, KBNPvKRB, KBNPvKRN, KBNPvKRP, KBNPvKBB,
KBNPvKBN, KBNPvKNN, KBPPvKRP, KBPPvKBB, KBPPvKBN, KBPPvKBP, KBPPvKNN,
KBPPvKNP, KNNNvKQP, KNNNvKRR, KNNNvKRB, KNNNvKRN, KNNPvKRB, KNNPvKRN,
KNNPvKRP, KNNPvKBB, KNNPvKBN, KNNPvKNN, KNPPvKRP, KNPPvKBB, KNPPvKBN,
KNPPvKBP, KNPPvKNN, KNPPvKNP, KPPPvKBP, KPPPvKNP, KPPPvKPP, KRBPPvKQ,
KRNPPvKQ, KRPPPvKQ, KBBBPvKQ, KBBNPvKQ, KBBPPvKQ, KBNNPvKQ, KBNPPvKQ,
KBPPPvKR, KNNNPvKQ, KNNPPvKQ, KNPPPvKR, KPPPPvKR, KPPPPvKB, KPPPPvKN
total ESMs: 238
423497287507506 winning out of 730124977157238
win % =58.00

playerafar

@MARattigan post #2547  might be the best post of the 2,548 posts so far !
Very Informative !   
For example - its telling us that there are over 994,000 possible positions (but under a million) with two Kings plus a pawn ...
and that two thirds of those are Wins !  
Good Concrete Info !  
But to post further - got to look at that post further ...

tygxc

#2547
"USING UNCORRECTED SYZYGY POSITION COUNTS:"
That says absolutely nothing about solving chess.
It is by no means proven or even plausible that all of these positions are equally likely to result from the initial position by a reasonable game with > 50% accuracy.
e.g. # men additional to kings=5
The most likely is KRPP vs. KRP.
"Endings of one rook and pawns are about the most common sort of endings arising on the chess board." - Capablanca

playerafar

@MARattigan
Side note to post #2548 and to your excellent post before that.
there are under 4000 positions of the two Kings - and max 48 positions for a pawn.  That means under 200,000 arrangements.
Multiply that by two for whose move it is.  So 400,000.
Double that for black or white pawn.  Under 800,000.  
Somehow -  there's more than another 194,000 + positions.  
Nice mystery !  I'm confident there's a good explanation though.

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:
playerafar wrote:

A pawn as a higher ratio of total pieces more likely to produce a win?
That seems to be contradicted by a defending King getting in front of that pawn.
Or - getting the opposition.
...

My labels were perhaps misleading. I was speaking of a difference of  ≤1 in the sum of the values of the pieces for each side with the values Q→9, R→5, B→3, N→3, P→1 rather than, necessarily identical material or an extra pawn for one side.

I've changed the label and listed the endgames below:

 

USING UNCORRECTED SYZYGY POSITION COUNTS:

Game BR
Endgames with notional material difference at most 1 pawn(s)

# men additional to kings=0
KvK
total ESMs: 1
win % =0.00

# men additional to kings=1
KPvK
total ESMs: 1
667692 winning out of 994056

Uh oh !  994056 ??
Under 4000 possible positions of the two Kings
(upper bound 64x60)
plus under 50 positions of one pawn (48 in fact)
So under 200,000 so far ...
x2 for whose move it is.  Under 400,000 ...
plus x2 for black or white pawn ....
you're still under 800,000.
Where's the other 194,000 other positions coming from ?

win % =67.17

# men additional to kings=2
KQvKQ, KRvKR, KBvKB, KBvKN, KNvKN, KPvKP
total ESMs: 6
20096412 winning out of 73668036
win % =27.28

# men additional to kings=3
KQPvKQ, KRRvKQ, KRBvKQ, KRNvKQ, KRPvKR, KBBvKR, KBNvKR, KBPvKR,
KNNvKR, KNPvKR, KBPvKB, KNPvKB, KPPvKB, KBPvKN, KNPvKN, KPPvKN,
KPPvKP, KQPvKQ, KRRvKQ, KRBvKQ, KRNvKQ, KRPvKR, KBBvKR, KBNvKR,
KBPvKR, KBPvKB, KBPvKN, KNNvKR, KNPvKR, KNPvKB, KNPvKN, KPPvKB,
KPPvKN, KPPvKP
total ESMs: 34
15031957290 winning out of 36932117436
win % =40.70

# men additional to kings=4
KRBPvKQ, KRNPvKQ, KBBBvKQ, KBBNvKQ, KBNNvKQ, KNNNvKQ, KBPPvKR,
KNPPvKR, KPPPvKB, KPPPvKN, KQQvKQQ, KQRvKQR, KQBvKQB, KQBvKQN,
KQNvKQN, KQPvKQP, KQPvKRR, KRRvKRR, KRBvKRB, KRBvKRN, KRNvKRN,
KRPvKRP, KRPvKBB, KRPvKBN, KRPvKNN, KRPvKBB, KBBvKBB, KBBvKBN,
KBBvKNN, KRPvKBN, KBBvKBN, KBNvKBN, KBNvKNN, KBPvKBP, KBPvKNP,
KRPvKNN, KBBvKNN, KBNvKNN, KNNvKNN, KBPvKNP, KNPvKNP, KPPvKPP,
KRBPvKQ, KRNPvKQ, KBBBvKQ, KBBNvKQ, KBNNvKQ, KBPPvKR, KNNNvKQ,
KNPPvKR, KPPPvKB, KPPPvKN
total ESMs: 52
1262729602320 winning out of 2598590952432
win % =48.59

# men additional to kings=5
KRBPPvKQ, KRNPPvKQ, KRPPPvKQ, KBBBPvKQ, KBBNPvKQ, KBBPPvKQ, KBNNPvKQ,
KBNPPvKQ, KNNNPvKQ, KNNPPvKQ, KBPPPvKR, KNPPPvKR, KPPPPvKR, KPPPPvKB,
KPPPPvKN, KQQPvKQQ, KQRRvKQQ, KQRBvKQQ, KQRNvKQQ, KQRPvKQR, KQBBvKQR,
KQBNvKQR, KQBPvKQR, KQNNvKQR, KQNPvKQR, KRRRvKQR, KRRBvKQR, KRRNvKQR,
KQBPvKQB, KQNPvKQB, KQPPvKQB, KRRBvKQB, KRRNvKQB, KRRPvKQB, KRBBvKQB,
KRBNvKQB, KRNNvKQB, KQBPvKQN, KQNPvKQN, KQPPvKQN, KRRBvKQN, KRRNvKQN,
KRRPvKQN, KRBBvKQN, KRBNvKQN, KRNNvKQN, KQPPvKQP, KRRPvKQP, KRBBvKQP,
KRBNvKQP, KRBPvKQP, KRNNvKQP, KRNPvKQP, KBBBvKQP, KBBNvKQP, KBNNvKQP,
KNNNvKQP, KQPPvKRR, KRRPvKRR, KRBBvKRR, KRBNvKRR, KRBPvKRR, KRNNvKRR,
KRNPvKRR, KBBBvKRR, KBBNvKRR, KBNNvKRR, KNNNvKRR, KRBPvKRB, KRNPvKRB,
KRPPvKRB, KBBBvKRB, KBBNvKRB, KBBPvKRB, KBNNvKRB, KBNPvKRB, KNNNvKRB,
KNNPvKRB, KRBPvKRN, KRNPvKRN, KRPPvKRN, KBBBvKRN, KBBNvKRN, KBBPvKRN,
KBNNvKRN, KBNPvKRN, KNNNvKRN, KNNPvKRN, KRPPvKRP, KBBPvKRP, KBNPvKRP,
KBPPvKRP, KNNPvKRP, KNPPvKRP, KRPPvKBB, KBBPvKBB, KBNPvKBB, KBPPvKBB,
KNNPvKBB, KNPPvKBB, KRPPvKBN, KBBPvKBN, KBNPvKBN, KBPPvKBN, KNNPvKBN,
KNPPvKBN, KBPPvKBP, KNPPvKBP, KPPPvKBP, KRPPvKNN, KBBPvKNN, KBNPvKNN,
KBPPvKNN, KNNPvKNN, KNPPvKNN, KBPPvKNP, KNPPvKNP, KPPPvKNP, KPPPvKPP,
KQQPvKQQ, KQRRvKQQ, KQRBvKQQ, KQRNvKQQ, KQRPvKQR, KQBBvKQR, KQBNvKQR,
KQBPvKQR, KQBPvKQB, KQBPvKQN, KQNNvKQR, KQNPvKQR, KQNPvKQB, KQNPvKQN,
KQPPvKQB, KQPPvKQN, KQPPvKQP, KQPPvKRR, KRRRvKQR, KRRBvKQR, KRRBvKQB,
KRRBvKQN, KRRNvKQR, KRRNvKQB, KRRNvKQN, KRRPvKQB, KRRPvKQN, KRRPvKQP,
KRRPvKRR, KRBBvKQB, KRBBvKQN, KRBBvKQP, KRBBvKRR, KRBNvKQB, KRBNvKQN,
KRBNvKQP, KRBNvKRR, KRBPvKQP, KRBPvKRR, KRBPvKRB, KRBPvKRN, KRNNvKQB,
KRNNvKQN, KRNNvKQP, KRNNvKRR, KRNPvKQP, KRNPvKRR, KRNPvKRB, KRNPvKRN,
KRPPvKRB, KRPPvKRN, KRPPvKRP, KRPPvKBB, KRPPvKBN, KRPPvKNN, KBBBvKQP,
KBBBvKRR, KBBBvKRB, KBBBvKRN, KBBNvKQP, KBBNvKRR, KBBNvKRB, KBBNvKRN,
KBBPvKRB, KBBPvKRN, KBBPvKRP, KBBPvKBB, KBBPvKBN, KBBPvKNN, KBNNvKQP,
KBNNvKRR, KBNNvKRB, KBNNvKRN, KBNPvKRB, KBNPvKRN, KBNPvKRP, KBNPvKBB,
KBNPvKBN, KBNPvKNN, KBPPvKRP, KBPPvKBB, KBPPvKBN, KBPPvKBP, KBPPvKNN,
KBPPvKNP, KNNNvKQP, KNNNvKRR, KNNNvKRB, KNNNvKRN, KNNPvKRB, KNNPvKRN,
KNNPvKRP, KNNPvKBB, KNNPvKBN, KNNPvKNN, KNPPvKRP, KNPPvKBB, KNPPvKBN,
KNPPvKBP, KNPPvKNN, KNPPvKNP, KPPPvKBP, KPPPvKNP, KPPPvKPP, KRBPPvKQ,
KRNPPvKQ, KRPPPvKQ, KBBBPvKQ, KBBNPvKQ, KBBPPvKQ, KBNNPvKQ, KBNPPvKQ,
KBPPPvKR, KNNNPvKQ, KNNPPvKQ, KNPPPvKR, KPPPPvKR, KPPPPvKB, KPPPPvKN
total ESMs: 238
423497287507506 winning out of 730124977157238
win % =58.00


@MARattigan - this time I tried the 'within' text.
Please see my note in Red near the top of the quote of your post.

Oh wait a minute ...  maybe its including Illegal positions !
Kings adjacent stuff.  
Or a King in check from the pawn but its the other King's move !!  

But then - how would that figure in the 'percentage' ??
Uh oh.  Again.

playerafar


Martin:

"The Black/White is taken care of by including only KPK, not KPK and KKP"

All right - so they cut down by getting rid of reflections - and then multiplied by 8 for whose move - color - board flip ?
But that Would count the color of pawn ...

Equivalence classes:
50 move rule in K and P versus K ?
OMG !   
Trying to make this understandable to people just dropping in to the forum ...

as opposed to ...

Elroch
haiaku wrote:

Mmmh... The evaluation may be less biased than Q-learning, but if the evaluation is less biased, you need more training and/or more search after the training, so it's always a trade-off. Idk wether it would be more effective to solve chess. It's always the bias-variance dilemma, NFL... you know .

The paper you reference is about MuZero,

Ah! I missed the fact that it was a separate development to AlphaZero.

which is based on A0 (but it does not outperform the latter). For A0, It seems that Q-learning is not suited for NN, right?

Not sure what you mean, but deep Q-learning is a powerful general reinforcement learning paradigm which might be reasonably hypothesised to be near optimal. (The discrete version can be proven to be optimal in one sense).

So they replaced the discount factor γ and a temporal-difference learning, with a learning based on a modified MCTS search. The Lc0 team calls this search PUCT (Predictor + Upper Confidence bound Tree search), rather than MCTS. Basically, "each search consists of a series of simulated games of self-play that traverse a tree from root state sᵣₒₒₜ until a leaf state is reached"¹ (italic mine). Moves for each simulation are selected according to the current NN, which uses two parameters: a probability vector for the moves to be played (the policy) and the predicted value for the node. The search returns another vector of probabilities for the moves to be played. During learning, these games are played until a terminal node (the end of the game) is reached, where a definitive score is assigned to the root node. At this point the parameters used by the NN (the policy vector p and the predicted outcome v) are updated to minimize respectively the difference with the probability vector resulting by the search and the outcome of the terminal node. So at the beginning the search is random, but every time a terminal node is reached, the parameters are refined. During the search, moves with a combination of high probability, high value and low visit count are selected more.

So it does resemble very much an Actor-Critic learning.

You have explained it well and clarified a couple of key points. The complete idea is very neat.

But choosing a move because it has a higher probability to be played, or an average better score, is nevertheless an heuristic.

It sure is! Neural networks learning from batches of empirical data are 100% heuristics. happy.png

¹ https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.01815.pdf

 

MARattigan
playerafar wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
playerafar wrote:

...

Please see my note in Red near the top of the quote of your post.

...

Yes indeed. 

Red face. I did my favourite javascript trick of checking for the key 'stats' with one = instead of two, thereby setting it instead. The result was to multiply all the position counts by three.

Luckily that doesn't change the percentages.

Corrected version:

 

USING UNCORRECTED SYZYGY POSITION COUNTS:

Game BR
Endgames with notional material difference at most 1 pawn(s)

# men additional to kings=0
total ESMs: 1
win % =0.00

# men additional to kings=1
total ESMs: 1
222564 winning out of 331352
win % =67.17

# men additional to kings=2
total ESMs: 6
6698804 winning out of 24556012
win % =27.28

# men additional to kings=3
total ESMs: 34
5010652430 winning out of 12310705812
win % =40.70

# men additional to kings=4
total ESMs: 52
420909867440 winning out of 866196984144
win % =48.59

# men additional to kings=5
total ESMs: 238
141165762502502 winning out of 243374992385746
win % =58.00

Also deleted my previous reply as it was nonsense.

playerafar

331352
That looks a lot more believable for 2 Kings and a pawn.
And if they skipped changing the pawn color that looks OK too.
So its 'under 4000' K-positions x 'under 50' pawn positions x 2 for whose move it is ...
then that 331,352 looks about right.
With 2/3 of them wins again.

playerafar

Very roughly rounding off ...
for odd numbers of men to go with the Kings ...
then percentages of wins went 70 then 40 then 60.

Irksome that.   There's no apparent trend.
Shucks !   Hopes are Dashed.  happy.png

MARattigan

@playerafar

The number of KPK positions according to Wilhelm/Nalimov is also 331352, but the 331352 in the corrected figures above is actually made up two lots of 165676 taken from KPK and KKP where Syzygy divides by 2 to account for left right symmetry.

Wilhelm/Nalimov reports positions as the man in the street would understand the term, but that essentially counts positions transformed by board symmetries multiple times. 

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:

@playerafar

The number of KPK positions according to Wilhelm/Nalimov is also 331352.

I don't think its hard to calculate by hand. 
Although I won't guarantee it would match that number.
It Probably Would !!  diamond.png
A sum of three terms for a King in corner/edge/interior multiplied by 2 and then 48 ?
Unfortunately not quite that simple - as one or both Kings might take one or two of the pawn's 48 possible squares

MARattigan
playerafar wrote:

Very roughly rounding off ...
for odd numbers of men to go with the Kings ...
then percentages of wins went 70 then 40 then 60.

Irksome that.   There's no apparent trend.
Shucks !   Hopes are Dashed.  

As I said previously I dropped the 3 man figures from the graph because it's out of line with the rest and  includes only KPK. It covers only a third of a million positions (revised figure) compared with 25 million rising to a quarter of a quintillion for the 4-7 man endings. 

MARattigan
playerafar wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

@playerafar

The number of KPK positions according to Wilhelm/Nalimov is also 331352.

I don't think its hard to calculate by hand. 
Although I won't guarantee it would match that number.
It Probably Would !!  
A sum of three terms for a King in corner/edge/interior multiplied by 2 and then 48 ?
Unfortunately not quite that simple - as one or both Kings might take one or two of the pawn's 48 possible squares

You wouldn't match it exactly if you ruled out all illegal positions. Both Nalimov and Syzygy allow positions like this https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/8/8/8/5k2/4P3/4K3_b_-_-_0_1 (but not with White to move).

mercatorproject
MARattigan wrote:
playerafar wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

@playerafar

The number of KPK positions according to Wilhelm/Nalimov is also 331352.

I don't think its hard to calculate by hand. 
Although I won't guarantee it would match that number.
It Probably Would !!  
A sum of three terms for a King in corner/edge/interior multiplied by 2 and then 48 ?
Unfortunately not quite that simple - as one or both Kings might take one or two of the pawn's 48 possible squares

You wouldn't match it exactly if you ruled out all illegal positions. Both Nalimov and Syzygy allow positions like this https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/8/8/8/5k2/4P3/4K3_b_-_-_0_1 (but not with White to move).

Wow. That syzygy needs a little more work.

playerafar
MARattigan wrote:
playerafar wrote:
MARattigan wrote:

@playerafar

The number of KPK positions according to Wilhelm/Nalimov is also 331352.

I don't think its hard to calculate by hand. 
Although I won't guarantee it would match that number.
It Probably Would !!  
A sum of three terms for a King in corner/edge/interior multiplied by 2 and then 48 ?
Unfortunately not quite that simple - as one or both Kings might take one or two of the pawn's 48 possible squares

You wouldn't match it exactly if you ruled out all illegal positions. Both Nalimov and Syzygy allow positions like this https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/8/8/8/5k2/4P3/4K3_b_-_-_0_1 (but not with White to move).

I looked at that one.  It looks OK.  Black is in check but its his move.