Chess will never be solved, here's why

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Avatar of MARattigan
tygxc wrote:

#3031
"The more people question it, the surer you get."
++ It baffles me how you can question that. Are you a beginner who does not know that a piece down without any compensation loses the game?

I think I can honestly say I doubt if I'd win it as Black even against Stockfish. I'd put money on losing it against a 32 man tablebase if there were such a thing. 

Avatar of playerafar
tygxc wrote:

#3031
"The more people question it, the surer you get."
++ It baffles me how you can question that. Are you a beginner who does not know that a piece down without any compensation loses the game?

Lasker used to say its a rook.  A rook down.  Not a piece.
There is considerable rationale in not including Ba6 in 'weakly' solutions.
But knocking out 1) a4 ... or any of the 20 white first moves at all - is just too intensely suspect.
But don't worry !   As I said - you've been getting control of the forum.
And for 3000 posts now !
Simply by refusing to cave in !  grin.png 

Avatar of tygxc

#3034
"I think I can honestly say I doubt if I'd win it as Black even against Stockfish. I'd put money on losing it against a 32 man tablebase if there were such a thing. "

++ Yes, I guess that is true. However, we are not talking about practical play against Stockfish here with the inherent human errors, but rather about weakly solving chess. I.e. both entities commanding the white and the black pieces are presumed to play optimal moves.
Stockfish should win this against itself or against any present or future engine, or against the postulated 32-men table base. An ICCF grandmaster should win this against the postulated 32-men table base. In practice ICCF grandmasters resign when they lose a pawn without compensation. There is also no doubt at all that the postulated 32-men table base would list the entry 1 e4 e5 2 Ba6 as black checkmates in X moves, presumably with X < 50.

Avatar of playerafar


"Stockfish
 should win this against itself"

Heyyyy !!!   That's interesting !
What odds does a computer have to give itself ... to beat itself ??
A subject in itself !
But - tainted by Stockfish's pathetic findings of wins in obviously drawing situations.

Avatar of tygxc

#3035
"Lasker used to say its a rook."
++ Where did Lasker say that? A rook is enough to win, a piece is enough to win, a pawn is enough to win.
"The winning of a pawn among good players of even strength often means the winning of the game." - Capablanca
"An endgame with an extra pawn is won, the plan is to queen the pawn;
an endgame with an extra piece is won, the plan is to trade the piece for a pawn." - Capablanca

Avatar of playerafar

A pawn is Very Often not enough to win.
And a knight or bishop up often fails to win.
A rook is somewhat different.
Part of the theory of that is that if everything else is exchanged - the rook triumphs.  Its the Minimum Mating Material.
mmm  Rook up !!!

Avatar of playerafar

(could get a series of pingpong posts now where @tygxc actually knows what I'm talking about - but there's a kind of 'argument' about things we actually agree on.  Even though he's likely to maintain otherwise.
I think he does that all the time.   grin.pnggrin.png
But its okay)

Analogy:  You're walking through a particular part of town - and you walk by some busy tennis courts with many people playing ...
and you hear those volleys of Bop-bop-bop ... not quite like popcorn ...
has its own 'tennis' quality happy.png

Avatar of Elroch
tygxc wrote:

#3029

"The move that it assesses to have a higher probability of a good result, it views as better."
++ Yes, that is correct, but the paper went further to evolve several versions of AlphaZero so as to acquire more and more dependable knowledge.

AlphaZero is only useful for acquiring knowledge with uncertainty. It could however be helpful to generate candidate moves for an optimal strategy, much as programs were used for this in the (correct and complete) solution of checkers, which is a good model for what needs to be achieved for chess.  For example, to solve chess it is necessary to solve over 400 positions reached after 3 ply of moves(absolutely non-negotiable!), while for checkers the number was much smaller (but directly analogous).

"It is sometimes wrong (to the extent that its decisions lose)."
++ Yes, at 60 h/move it errs in 1 out of 10^5 positions.

"And Capablanca is less reliable than AlphaZero."
++ No, that is like saying Euler is less reliable than Ramanujan.

No it isn't, because they were both human and moreover there is no strong reason to believe Ramanujan had superior skills to Euler: both were superb mathematicians, with Euler living a lot earlier but being a lot broader in his work. By contrast, AlphaZero is so strong it would be capable of beating Capablanca in a large majority of games with both colours.  That despite the fact that Capablanca was one of the best human chess players ever.

But note also that chess is not mathematics. When Euler made a conjecture, he knew it was uncertain. He did not lose by not knowing the correct answer - rather he merely didn't solve that particular problem (and knew he hadn't solved it).  He was human and occasionally made mistakes, but his standards were extremely high and other mathematicians took things further.
Capablanca remarks that 1 e4 and 1 d4 occupy and control the center and open diagonals for the bishops and the queen and no other move accomplishes that much. All of that is true and verifyable and his conclusion is logical and true.

Jeez.

AlphaZero independently came to the same conclusion and ranks 1 d4 and 1 e4 above all 18 other possibilities, just like Capablanca said.

Such ranking can only relate to practical chess, not game theory. There is a set of first moves that win, a set that draw and a set that lose (these sets form a partition of the 20 legal moves).

Personally I would consider chess weakly solved if 1 e4 and 1 d4 are proven draws.

This is a statement about your lack of understanding of what solving means.

Jonathan Schaeffer did not claim checkers was solved when the "best" openings had been dealt with. He worked towards a complete solution and then announced it and published it when it was complete.  You should learn from him. He knows what he is talking about.

This discussion consists mostly of you repeating the same mistakes over and over again and other people correcting you. Look to Jonathan Schaeffer to find out who is correct.

 

Avatar of tygxc

#3039
"A pawn is Very Often not enough to win."
++ Among weak players or if there is compensation yes, but generally a pawn is enough to win.
"A pawn is a pawn" - Fischer
One example is the King's Gambit 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3.
"It loses by force" - Fischer
"I could not find a way for white to equalise" - Kramnik
This was confirmed by AlphaZero: see figure 4 (d) on page 10.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2009.04374.pdf 

That is also the reason why most gambits have vanished from top grandmaster play.
Grandmasters go though a lot of trouble and accept all kinds of cramped positions just to win a pawn. Here is an example: Carlsen gambits a pawn and almost loses.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2122755 

In weakly solving chess I would not care to handle e.g. Danish Gambit.

Avatar of playerafar

Euler now mentioned by @Elroch.
Euler was a great Swiss mathematician.
His equation e to the (i x pi) = -1 has been considered by some to be the most beautiful equation in all of math.  
Its called 'Euler's identity'.
Unfortunately - I have no easy way to type the equation in proper algebraic format.  
e is the base of natural logarithms.
i is the square root of minus one and is the base of complex numbers - if I recall it right.  It was called j when I studied it back then.
pi is of course ...  a transcendental number like e but much better known to the public than 'e'.
Volume of pizza pie with thickness 'a' and radius z ...
Pi x rsquared x a = Pi x z x z x a.  Which algebraically can be written
'Pizza'.  
stats.png

Avatar of tygxc

#3041
"There is a set of first moves that win, a set that draw and a set that lose"
++ Yes, that is true. The set of first white moves that win is conjectured to be empty. The set of white first moves that lose may be empty. That leaves all 20 first white moves in the same subset of moves that draw. However, by human logic per Capablanca no move accomplishes as much as 1 e4 or 1 d4. Thus if 1 e4 and 1 d4 are proven to be in the set of moves that draw, then as a corollary 1 a4 cannot be in the set that wins.
If 1 e4 and 1 d4 are proven not in the set of moves that win, then the logically inferior moves like 1 a4 are not in that set either and the set of winning first white moves is empty as conjectured.

Avatar of tygxc

#3041
"But note also that chess is not mathematics. "
++ Chess is a game, but game theory is a branch of mathematics and thus solving chess is mathematics.
Maybe the analogon of Capablanca vs. AlphaZero would be Euler vs. Appel & Haken.
Appel & Haken used a computer to prove the Four Color Theorem, that is not more reliable than the proofs of Euler without computer. When Appel & Haken finally had proven the Four Color Theorem (longtime known to be true, but not yet proven), many mathematicians doubted the validity of a computer proof.

Avatar of Elroch

Since you missed this, I will post it again.

Elroch wrote:

Jonathan Schaeffer did not claim checkers was solved when the "best" openings had been dealt with. He worked towards a complete solution over 18 years and then announced it and published it when it was complete

You should learn from him. He knows what he is talking about.

 

Avatar of haiaku
tygxc wrote:

When something is known, then there is no doubt, it is 100% sure, but the proof may not be available.

To weakly solve chess, the game-theoretic value of the game and a strategy to achieve that value must be determined. Being 100% sure of something without proof means that thing is considered an axiom. Using axioms like "the game-theoretic value of the game is a draw" and "this strategy is superior over that other" to prove in fact the axioms themselves, is a fallacy known as "begging the question". Excluding "inferior" strategies makes actually impossible to falsify the assumption of their inferiority.

Many posts ago you said:

Provability is a higher degree of truth.

I asked if you can provide papers supporting this statement, because we use in general only two values of truth: true and false. Are you sure you did not mistake "provability" for "probability", reading something about fuzzy logic? If that statement was true, a proof could not be true at a higher degree, compared to a knowledge already 100% true.

"you assume it is infallible and think its knowledge is 100% reliable!"
++ No not at all, in fact I calculated its error rate at 60 h/move to be 1 error in 10^5 positions and thus concluded 4 white candidate moves are required to achieve 1 error in 10^20 positions.

That calculation is flawed for "begging the question" and other reasons, but you refuse to address its many problems.

Avatar of Optimissed
haiaku wrote:

@Optimissed

I referenced specifically that paper because it uses just van den Herik's definition of weak solution that @tygxc uses, and it explains the meaning of "any opposition". AFAIK no one interprets the concept in another way. You can find other works stating that a strategy must achieve the game-theoretic value against any possible opponent's move. There is consensus about that and the processes involved. An engine can, as you say, alternatively test White's strategy against all the possible Black's moves and Black's strategy against all the possible White's move, and it still would search less nodes than a strong solution requires; in fact, an engine can apply e.g. alpha-beta pruning, but the leaf nodes must have an exact value (win, draw or loss), not an estimation, to get a real solution.

Optimissed wrote:

If there's any doubt, you test a move. Where there's no doubt, you prune the move. You reject it. Then you repeat the processes, in logical order.

Great. If you can provide a strategy that indeed excludes useless lines without any doubt before values are given through a TBH (or 3-fold repetition, etc.), we are all ears. @tygxc 's method does not guarantee that.

I'm afraid there's a considerable amount of misrepresentation happening here. Just to remind you, I'm the person who has been trying to remind you of the problems involved. I didn't say it was going to be easy to follow and asking me to solve it, as if, all of a sudden, you are not the person who is perpetually confused, is a lot worse than disingenuous. So far as I can see, all of a sudden you're trying to pretend you've just won an argument. People have tried it on me before when they've tried to save face but I prefer honesty and straightforwardness by quite a margin.

I think our conversation is over. I don't like that kind of tactic.

Avatar of playerafar

Projection again.

Avatar of playerafar


 "Using axioms like "the game-theoretic value of the game is a draw" and "this strategy is superior over that other" to prove in fact the axioms themselves, is a fallacy known as "begging the question"."
I think its also called circular reasoning.  And its a form of illogic.
@Haiaku is correct as usual. 
But @tygxc will 'get away with it' in a double-edged sense.
He won't concede anything - but continues to be exposed.

@tygxc is a very good chess player.  
In conversations that resemble chess games ... a square and what's on it (issue in the conversation) can be contested - or conceded - or ... simply shift activity to another square.
Each square can be considered to be a kind of game in itself.
So anytime @tygxc looks like he might be 'in trouble' on a particular square ...  he can simply shift his responses slightly. 
The other person 'waits' for a response but there isn't one.
So the closest @tygxc comes to concession - is silence.
What is very paradoxical about this though - is he is able to do this quite civilly.
More about that in a minute - but first:
we got this a few pages ago:

ChessSBM wrote:

I want to learn how to debate. Any advice?

Various ideas:
1) 'how to debate' can be typed on google search
2) 'debate' is a broadly-used term on the website. 
There are few if any conversations on this website that are like proper debates in debating societies in Universities.
Nor even approaching the organization in political debates on TV between politicians running against each other for election to high political office.
In a 'true' debate you might even see the two sides switch positions.
Each 'team' will take the opposite position they took in the first debate and then the debate happens a second time.  But differently.
A panel that does not include any member of the two debate teams will vote on a 'winner' of each debate.  Plus maybe 'grade' the teams.
That panel also moderates.  Applies rules.  Maintains decorum and so on.

///////////////////////////
Again:

haiaku
 
 
 
 0 
#2986

I have provided a paper that clearly contradicts the interpretation of "any opposition" you give.


That post was addressed to @tygxc - not 'somebody'.
Point:  It seems that @tygxc has not responded to @Haiaku 's reminder of providing a 'paper'.  
If anybody tries to do @tygxc 's answering For him ...
after the conversation had already 'converged' on @Haiaku 's reminder to @tygxc ...
well the result of that is definitely more 'circles' because it greatly enhances @tygxc 's opportunity to sidestep the reminder.  Or obfuscates it.
But - extra ironic ...  interference by that third person - is from that same third person who bitterly complains about 'circles'.  grin.png

Again:  from @Haiaku to @tygxc 

haiaku
 
 
 
 0 
#2986

I have provided a paper that clearly contradicts the interpretation of "any opposition" you give.


Has there been any indication here that @tygxc has read that response 'paper' and responded to that reminder?
Just repeating den Herik's definition over and over is 'dodging'.
@tygxc 'interpreted' den Herik's definition.

But @tygxc has no compelling obligation to consider the other paper provided.
Even in a proper debating society in a University - he would not have to do so.
Nor in a court of law in front of a jury.
He might have to acknowledge official 'receipt' of the paper -
which is called 'Discovery' I believe ...
or - has to indicate whether he accepts or objects to 'Exhibit A' or whatever.

but in jurisdictions - a lawyer is not directly compelled to read evidence.
He could lose business - get his reputation hurt ...  but would any judge anywhere have grounds to find him in contempt or get him disbarred ?
Extent of obligation: 
"Your Honor - I acknowledge to the Court that Defense has no objection to Exhibit A."
He then can ignore Exhibit A completely if he chooses.

Avatar of Optimissed

I think that someone has accused you of projecting. Probably many people have, because when you're an inadequate person, with no real sense of personal pride and a fundamental dishonesty because of that, you will tend to accuse others of having your own weaknesses. So it becomes a handy weapon, because when a person is like you, sticking your nose in where it isn't wanted and generally being unpleasant, you aren't liked. So there will be a tendency to project that onto others. Because you've seen the truth, when others have told you that you're projecting, and it's hurt you, you'll try to do that to others, completely by reflex. It's one of the many tactics that people like you tend to use, to try to salvage some degree of false pride. You do it over and over and it makes you look completely pathetic. You shouldn't do it. You'll never have any real self-respect.

Avatar of playerafar

Here's another circular assertion from @tygxc 
From post #177 - way back in January:  Here:  https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/chess-will-never-be-solved-heres-why?page=9#comment-67001537

"Checkers was solved by only the square root of the number of legal positions. Hence it is plausible to apply the square root in chess too to account for all positions rendered irrelevant."
No its Not.  Nice try though.  grin.png
How many of these has he made? 
Maybe they can all be summarized in one list.

Avatar of playerafar
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
btickler wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Well, there wouldn't be a hint of aggression to someone who hardly knows the difference between wishing somone a good evening and killing them, now would there. Mind your own business.

Lol.  And how would you make such a damning judgment about anyone...over the internet no less?  No assumptions going on there at all...

You and I are fine so long as you don't interfere in discussions which don't concern you. You yourself just made a judgement so try not to be a hypocrite. Moreover, you still have me and many others blocked; most usually because of differences of opinion and then you troll people to manufacture an excuse to block them. Please do not concern yourself in other people's discussions and you'll get on fine with others, because technically, you can block whom you want. I would like to get on well with you, as with anyone.

Yeah, I guess it *would* be easier to get along with other posters that disagree with you if they just stopped posting?

Making judgments is not in question.  It's making judgments based on nothing concrete (assumptions) that I was discussing.  No equivalency = no hypocrisy.

As has been gone over many times, the people on my block list are almost universally there for Covid-19 discussion issues.  Before that thread existed, I had maybe 0-2 people on my block list at any given time, and I cleared it periodically.  

As for "please do not concern yourself in other people's discussions and you'll get on fine with others"...this is your first post in the thread.  Note how your own advice applies.  You strolled in looking for a fight (one *might* even say that your post was aggressive ...), as per usual, and once you've stirred up the pot a bit (with the OP, Martiggan, Mpaetz, Playerafar, Elroch, and now myself), you now want to extricate yourself and be left alone.  Conveniently, this wish for getting along always follows only after you have already dropped your payload and have run out of bombs yourself.  There's an adjective for describing those who sue for peace in this manner having already unloaded their salvos...

'adjective' yes. 
But the constant and consistent projection from the individual is remarkable. 
Every time he does something - its 'the other person doing it'. 
Close to 100% of the time.  He'll even project his projecting too.   
But that's part of chronic projection though. 
If he admits it - how can he continue?
It might even extend to his trying to deter use of the word.
One is not to say it ? 
And 'is not to disagree with him nor criticize any post he makes'? 
A kind of 'emperor has no clothes but you mustn't say it' situation.