Chess will never be solved, here's why

Sort:
Avatar of Elroch
Optimissed wrote:

<<It is also true of the quantification of belief - this just happens to be less familiar to many people.>>

More specifically, it ought to be clear to you that this thing, "the quantification of belief" is an artificial device which has been invented in order to try to make it look as if computers can resemble the human mind.

Nothing to do with computers.

Bayesian probability - the quantification of belief - predates computers - and I explained that computers don't change it, any more than calculators changed arithmetic.

You write:
<<<<<The error that the proverbial "man in the street" would surely make is one that is pragmatically fine for all normal purposes. This is to treat all small probabilities as zero. It's perfectly reasonable to (literally) bet your life on something with very low probability not happening. But some of us understand that it is quantitatively enormously wrong (in a way that those familiar how to quantify how wrong a belief is can see).

To illustrate that last point, suppose someone takes the view that an event that happens 1 in a trillion times is literally impossible. This would imply that they would be willing to stake an unlimited amount against any return on this being so. And they would be willing to do this an unlimited number of times. That is what certainty means quantitatively.>>>>>

Your error is to treat something that is either 0 or 1 as 0.99999999999999,

All uncertain boolean quantities are either 0 or 1. The thing that is not is the appropriate belief about the quantity. This is not a difficult point.

Yes, one person can be inappropriately certain while another is not. That is because their reasoning is incorrect (they likely don't even think about the precise sequence of steps that has led to their belief, even when their attention is drawn to them).

 

Avatar of pds314
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, 2. Ba6 losing doesn't consist of quantitative knowledge. That's where you're going wrong. It's purely qualitative, since it loses. It doesn't "probably lose". There are situations which we cannot easily understand but this isn't one of them and your mistake seems to be to wish to apply that same formula to all situations, including those where it's inappropriate, "just to be safe". Really that isn't an epistemological uncertainty but probably an emotional one. If something causes you to invest your beliefs very heavily in that kind of doctrinaire assessment, it probably isn't something you can easily overcome!

"it loses. It doesn't probably lose"

There are two senses a position can lose, empirically and analytically.

Empirically, Ba6 loses (or... probably loses? it's the same thing). You could run billions of high level engine games and you probably wouldn't even get one draw. The reason anyone wins or draws with Ba6 is if their opponent makes serious blunders. Mostly at very low ELO.

Analytically, we don't know. Nobody has convincingly solved chess for Ba6. No amount of empirical evidence will show that Ba6 is losing unless it constitutes an exhaustive search. In all likelihood it is losing. But we do not have certainty either way.

Given the title of the thread is about solving chess, the context here is that we are talking about whether a position is an analytical loss, and not an empirical one.

Avatar of Optimissed
pds314 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

Incidentally, 2. Ba6 losing doesn't consist of quantitative knowledge. That's where you're going wrong. It's purely qualitative, since it loses. It doesn't "probably lose". There are situations which we cannot easily understand but this isn't one of them and your mistake seems to be to wish to apply that same formula to all situations, including those where it's inappropriate, "just to be safe". Really that isn't an epistemological uncertainty but probably an emotional one. If something causes you to invest your beliefs very heavily in that kind of doctrinaire assessment, it probably isn't something you can easily overcome!

"it loses. It doesn't probably lose"

There are two senses a position can lose, empirically and analytically.

Empirically, Ba6 loses (or... probably loses? it's the same thing). You could run billions of high level engine games and you probably wouldn't even get one draw. The reason anyone wins or draws with Ba6 is if their opponent makes serious blunders. Mostly at very low ELO.

Analytically, we don't know. Nobody has convincingly solved chess for Ba6. No amount of empirical evidence will show that Ba6 is losing unless it constitutes an exhaustive search. In all likelihood it is losing. But we do not have certainty either way.

Given the title of the thread is about solving chess, the context here is that we are talking about whether a position is an analytical loss, and not an empirical one.

I don't agree with that. Empirically just means "in fact and according to observation" (my very quick definition but it isn't important.) Analysis is no different. It either loses or not and this distinction between analytic and empirical is false. At the very best it depends on the empirical evidence being wrong. But if it's wrong, it's wrong. So no.

Avatar of tygxc

@6559

"The first move advantage is enough to force a win."
++ No, it is not. You cannot queen a tempo.
The first move advantage diminishes with each move made. Engine-wise it starts at +0.33 reflecting the extra tempo and then gradually evaporates to 0.00.
A tempo is not enough to win. A pawn is. A bishop is.
It is curious that some people refuse to accept that a tempo is not enough to win,
and some people refuse to accept that a pawn, or a bishop is enough to win.

"some forced checkmates are many hundreds of moves long"
++ Yes, but those positions where there is such a forced checkmate cannot be reached from the initial position by optimal play from both sides.
In ICCF players are allowed to claim a 7-men table base win that exceeds 50 moves without pawn move or capture. Such claims never occur. No 7-men table base win claims occur at all, all decided games are by resignation after a human error. 22% of draws are by 7-men endgame table base draw claims.
All ICCF games are over long before the 50-moves rule would be triggered, the longest game was a draw in 119 moves. 50-moves draw claims do not occur in ICCF.

Avatar of tygxc

@6581

"There are two senses a position can lose, empirically and analytically."
++ We are only concerned about analytically here in this context of game solving.
From the AlphaZero paper we know that 1 g4? is the worst of the 20 possible moves.
Empirically white wins 29%, draws 22% and loses 48%.
The late IM Basman played it with success at IM level.
Analytically 1 g4? loses by force.





Avatar of Elroch

Steinitz "knew" he could give God pawn and move and still win.

Avatar of llama36
tygxc wrote:

From the AlphaZero paper we know that [empirically, after] 1 g4? . . .  white wins 29%, draws 22% and loses 48%.

Analytically 1 g4? loses by force.

Do you know what "loses by force" means? I don't think you do.

Avatar of tygxc

@6586
I know, you do not. I provided analysis.
Try to find an improvement for white. You will fail.

Avatar of llama36

Oh, so you analyzed 1.g4 to a forced loss...

I haven't been following this topic so I didn't realize this line of argument would bring up more of your "proofs." I'll just quietly go away now.

Avatar of Optimissed
llama36 wrote:

Oh, so you analyzed 1.g4 to a forced loss...

I haven't been following this topic so I didn't realize this line of argument would bring up more of your "proofs." I'll just quietly go away now.


Unfortunately, that type of statement discredits everything else he says. It's like me, firmly believing in the paranormal and refusing to be side-tracked by those claiming that it couldn't possibly exist because "they know better". I very much doubt the "analysis" is correct and 1. g4 loses by force. I very much doubt that any first move by white can lose by force.

A move such as 1. g4 develops a bishop but is also the beginnings of a kingside pawn storm. One possible, natural move to counter it is 1. ...d5. Quite possibly, both sides would be safer castling 0-0-0. A win by force from move one sounds outlandish, although not as completely crazy as imagining that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 possibly does not lose by force.

Avatar of Elroch

It is very likely that 1. e4 e5 2. Ba6 loses by force. It is not impossible that it does not.

Some people have difficulty understanding very low probability possibilities when they are more than trivial.

For example, I would say you would understand that tossing N fair coins and getting N heads is possible for any number N. When N is, say 1,000,000, this probability is so tiny that it is for all practical purposes zero. But it is still a small positive number and anyone who claimed it was impossible to have a million heads from a million coin tosses (or that the probability of this event is zero) is easily refuted.

If you were to study the process of Bayesian inference, and to understand that inductive learning cannot do better than this the fact that an inductive conclusion never reaches certainty would be as obvious as that N heads has a strictly positive probability.

Avatar of ShradhaRai2011-2

Hello

Avatar of tygxc

@6590
"understanding very low probability possibilities"
++ There are no probabilities, this is deterministic. A position is either drawn, won, or lost.

Avatar of Elroch

Sigh.

Any unfamiliar position has a deterministic result. Your faulty reasoning implies that this means the only belief states about it are certainty about one of the possible results.

Your reasoning is (obviously) wrong.

Avatar of tygxc

@6593

1 e4 e5 2 Ba6? loses by force for white. That is not 'very likely', there are no coin flips involved.
1 g4? loses by force for white. Anybody who doubts that, find an improvement for white @6584.
The initial position is a draw. Evidence has been provided above,  inductively from ICCF and deductively from 1 pawn = 3 tempi, and 1 pawn needed to queen.
Those are facts we know.

I do not know if 1 e4 c5 draws as well as 1 e4 e5. Probably both draw.
I cannot put a percentage on it. They either draw or not.
I do not know if 1 e4 e6 or 1 e4 c6 draw or not, probably not.
I cannot put a percentage on it. They either draw or not.
I do not know if 1 f3 loses for white or not, probably not.
I cannot put a percentage on it. It either loses or not.

Avatar of Elroch

Let me introduce you to the well-known fallacy of "proof by assertion" (also "proof by repeated assertion"). You are a keen user of this so I am sure you will be pleased to now know the correct term for what you do.

Avatar of Optimissed

Wikitongue.png
"Proof by assertion, sometimes informally referred to as proof by repeated assertion, is an informal fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction and refutation.[1] The proposition can sometimes be repeated until any challenges or opposition cease, letting the proponent assert it as fact, and solely due to a lack of challengers (argumentum ad nauseam).[2] In other cases, its repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth, in a variant of the appeal to authority or appeal to belief fallacies.[3]

This fallacy is sometimes used as a form of rhetoric by politicians, or during a debate as a filibuster. In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing.[1] Modern politics contains many examples of proofs by assertion. This practice can be observed in the use of political slogans, and the distribution of "talking points", which are collections of short phrases that are issued to members of modern political parties for recitation, and in order to achieve maximum message repetition. The technique is also sometimes used in advertising.[4]"

Avatar of Optimissed
Elroch wrote:

Sigh.

Any unfamiliar position has a deterministic result. Your faulty reasoning implies that this means the only belief states about it are certainty about one of the possible results.

Your reasoning is (obviously) wrong.


I agree with tygxc, despite his complete and utter inability to argue well. We are not certain about a result if there's genuine uncertainty. The correct argument is that there is no uncertainty at all, re. the proper result of 1. e5 e5 2. Ba6 and that you have artificially manufactured that uncertainty. It is merely your assertion that we do not know the result so you are arguably as guilty as those you argue against, regarding proof by assertion. It's just that you and I are far more eloquent than ty.

Avatar of MARattigan

As I said before. Post your 10/10 wins against SF15. You should have no difficulty if there's no uncertainty.

Avatar of Optimissed
MARattigan wrote:

As I said before. Post your 10/10 wins against SF15. You should have no difficulty if there's no uncertainty.


I'm nearly sure you can't have been addressing me. But even so, there's no accounting for the complete confusion in the minds of some people.