Chess will never be solved, here's why

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DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I just took a quick refresher course on mathematical induction, since I learned it many decades ago. The course consisted of a really bad teacher, I think called Khan,

Do you mean Khan Academy, by chance? 

explaining sums of consecutive numbers from 1 to n, as given by the formula n(n+1)/2. He managed to show how if it counts for a number k it counts for k+1, k+2, k+3 etc.

Firstly it's all just simple logic. Secondly, the average of a consecutive series of numbers to n is (n+1)/2 and so the sum is n multiplied by the average. OK so all very trivial.

The idea that you can use that kind of linearity to extend a mathematical depiction of a simple game like noughts and crosses into a proof that the same is available for chess is mistaken and Zermelo was wrong about it. Simple as that. Yes he's a famous mathematician. Yes, mathematicians always jealously protect their own. No, mathematical induction, which is a simple process of logic, does not and cannot be used to make a case that the impossible is possible. Noughts and crosses is not commensurable with chess.

I accept I'm making a claim. I already asked what my wife had to say about transfinite numbers. She's a psychologist. Mensa measured her IQ pretty high. 156 or 158. She's extremely bright. She thinks Cantor was a nutcase. Strangely enough, he was a nutcase. Then I asked my son when I was talking to him alone and he told me how important Cantor was for set theory. Nothing more or less. So he wasn't going to question him but perhaps nothing has caused him to question it so far. Maybe my question will have set him ticking. I would have liked to have been able to ask my father. Never mind. My wife's instinct was that Cantor was a nutcase. Using a bit more logic than that, I just thought he overstepped and he was describing an hypotheticality which he became caught up in and came to believe, which is what mentally ill people do. And my son supported Cantor because my son is a mathematician.

If I had a higher opinion of your ability to genuinely question, I would take you more seriously. I have never seen evidence that you are capable of it. Perhaps more tellingly, you never admit you lost an argument. That's the boy who cried Wolf! You aren't to be taken seriously in a situation where you are in danger of losing an argument.

You not only never admit you've lost an argument...you routinely claim to understand everything better than the most famous authorities on the subject. This should tell you and your crackpot fanbois something...

Einstein, Cantor, Zermelo, every authority ever in Thermodynamics...all hacks compared to you and your judgment rendered with 15 minutes of skimming over their ideas. Heck, you think the majority of philosophers (you own field of choice) are bunk and that you are inherently better.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I see your limitations then and must accept that it's beyond your control, because I know exactly what "informed" and "uninformed" mean to you. They have always stood as references as to whether an opinion is right or wrong, measured by whether it agrees with your own opinion. Nothing else.

That more properly applies to you...not an uncommon thing when you are arguing...well, anything.

I don't know why you choose to bring up the paranormal thing. It doesn't seem very relevant unless you think it will win you a couple of cheap votes.

We live in a World where many people disbelieve in the possibility of the paranormal or supernatural (they mean the same) and many people believe that it exists. I would think that the numbers believing it exists outweigh the numbers believing it doesn't and there are many undecided too. I'm an atheist for reasons that I would explain if it were allowed here but I do accept the reality of things like clairvoyance, some forms of telepathy, things that are variously called paranormal or miraculous etc. Again I could give a reasoned and detailed explanation of why but there's no need.

It's your attempt to win a point by means unrelated to this argument, since you probably suppose that only silly people believe that sort of stuff. You aren't doing very well but never mind, it's only to be expected.

Only silly people believe "that stuff", yes. And you believe in far more than clairvoyance...don't make me break out your crazy beliefs regarding your "abilities"...

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Yes I suppose I'm a clever guy. Einstein was good and I only dislike him because of what he did to Mileva Maric and their son. There are lots of good and clever people but you managed to forget that I dislike Newton. Cantor and Zermelo aren't important. What they did was simple and if not they, then others would have easily achieved it, probably without all the deception. I think you're an extremely innocent person. There was a big amount of BS with many famous people. Ego and the lengths they would go to to perpetuate their fame .... you forget that I studied philosophy. It made me realise how tenuous is the fame of some past, famous people. You read one philosopher and he's saying the opposite of another. They're both mainly wrong. Maths is no different really. If it doesn't serve a purpose then it's useless but it can't be disproven. That's falsifiability. If something is not falsifiable, it isn't taken seriously. Cantor's transfinite series is useless. Zermelo made weak industive arguments amd presented them wrongly as mathematical, logical induction. You can't get to solving chess mathematically by logical induction and Elroch's problem is his ego. Not capable of self-questioning and neither are you. Like children.

Oh, I didn't forget about Newton, or Turing, etc. You routinely disparage anyone and everyone, alive or dead, in order to play king of the hill and protect your fragile psyche.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

I'm waiting ...... or were you deliberately lying?

I'm cooking, you muppet. Try sitting on your hands, like when you have to pee. Your posturing is undignified.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

A bit dishonest that I disparaged Turing but it does serve to show how completely dishonest you are. Let's do a test. How did I disparage Turing?

Lol. You already know that you did, ergo the "bit dishonest". You just said it in the past day or two, so I'm sure people will not have forgotten. You downplayed the impact of Turing's role at Bletchley. This might be possible with other various team endeavors in history, but not so much with Turing. There's a reason the machine is named after him.

I'm surprised given The Imitation Game that you did not come right out and say that the woman who helped him in the movie actually was key in the process, or behind the bulk of the work, as you implied with Einstein.

[Yes, I know that she was a fictionalized amalgam of all the women who worked on the project...let's see if Optimissed knows that.]

ThePersonAboveYou

this is just for me to understand but what exactly does it mean for something to be solved and what exactly makes a move more solved than another? advantage? and if we're solving chess, fastest way to checkmate? or

Elroch
x6px wrote:

this is just for me to understand but what exactly does it mean for something to be solved and what exactly makes a move more solved than another? advantage? and if we're solving chess, fastest way to checkmate? or

There are a few different types of solution of a game, but what they have in common is that they tell you the optimal result of the game with perfect play, with absolute certainty. Tablebases provide the solutions of all the games which start with a small number of pieces on the board in a specified position (technically, they provide a strong solution of all of them, the most informative of the three main types of solution).

The wiki article is a painless way to get up to speed on the issue (and explains what I refer to above).

MEGACHE3SE
Optimissed wrote:
x6px wrote:

this is just for me to understand but what exactly does it mean for something to be solved and what exactly makes a move more solved than another? advantage? and if we're solving chess, fastest way to checkmate? or

It's a fantasy where some people believe that it should be possible to trace every possible sequence of moves in chess and determine if it wins, loses or draws. Totally crazy. It would take billions of years to work out and there would be nowhere to store the info, so it would be useless. Possibly no way to retrieve the info. Just a crackpot idea really.

there is no disagreement here, at least on my end. it hasnt been completely proven that a shortcut wont be found, but we currently have no progress on such a shortcut,.

DiogenesDue
Optimissed wrote:

Nope. I mentioned that there were others who contributed and were just as vital as Turing, since they did most of the work on the Tunny code. Shows the sort of person you are doesn't it? YOU are downplaying THEIR contribution. Turing has been romanticised but still did a lot for the war effort. As much as Mitchell who designed the Spitfire and as much as the Aussie general who held Tobruk against all the odds. And some others. Auchinleck, Montgomery. I have a signed letter somewhere from a Gurkha who was awarded the V.C. for single-handedly taking a hill in N Africa and wiping out a machine gun bunker, which enabled the hill to be held just in time to stop the passage of the German attack. You never know, he could have won us the war. If he hadn't done that they could have taken Libya or something and won the war. Any number of people you are systematically dissing by worshipping only the chosen heroes. You're just a kid really.

Twaddle.

Stop trying to obfuscate. You dislike the amount of acclaim Turing has finally gotten...no great mystery why.

My grandfather fought in the British 8th Army against Rommel (he was a Major at the time). I have a ghurka knife in my garage...been in its sheath for a long time now.

As for who is a kid...lol. You collect war memorabilia, but you've never served. You say you can take out 3 men in a fight, but you stamp and whine whenever you aren't getting your way. It's all a bit sad and insecure, really.

DiogenesDue
Luke-Jaywalker wrote:

they queued up to take him on, to no avail.

Good call. This will probably work better for you than when you called me the Bruce Lee of the forums years ago. Optimissed is much more likely to fall for such wind-up flattery.

Anika

ong, chillax ppl

playerafar
llama_l wrote:

Saying dumb stuff then reporting people for pointing out you're dumb... pretty classless. Guess we can add that to the list.

Reporting people? That doesn't sound like something tygxc would do.

Thee_Ghostess_Lola

would s/o plz report me ?...again ?...Lukey ?

playerafar

Regarding Elroch and Dio - they constantly outclass @Optimissed.
And O constantly loses. Because he lies as he projects. Among his other insecurities.
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Regarding mathematical induction I was taught that you first prove something is valid for k.
Then you prove its valid for k+1.
And only then - after that second step is mathematical induction in progress.
That's how I remember it. I might have forgotten some of it or misremembered it. It was many many years ago. You could just argue that by writing k=1 as an alternative c then that's already proven algebraically by just k. I remember having to prove initially that it would have to work for an actual known numerical value of k too.
Consider that if you 'prove it' for just the middle step ... that's almost like 'proving' that algebra works.
Checking Wiki just now - it doesn't seem to have changed.
'The second case, the induction step, proves that if the statement holds for any given case 
𝑛 = 𝑘, then it must also hold for the next case 𝑛 = 𝑘 + 1
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Regarding tygxc - he still continues to cling to the 'square root' argument.
When you take the square root of four - it happens that the result is half of four.
Square root of 9 - a third of the number.
Square root of 10,000 - a hundredth of the number.
But when you take the square root of an extremely large number ... the result is an extremely small fraction of that number.
The fact that the number in its numerical base 10 form is halved in Length could cause a person to intuitively downplay the degree to which the number has been reduced.
Why does tygxc keep returning to his disinformation regarding 'taking the square root'?
Because he knows about the prohibitive size regarding number of possible games of chess -
So he wants to take an almost infinitesimal fraction of that number ...
else everything he's claiming is 'swamped' by the permutations of possible games ...
He wants to take one grain of sand on a very large beach and claim that that is all to be cared about.
It is very similiar to his not caring about limitations on the operations per second computers can do - trying to assert 'nodes per second' instead.
--------------------------------------------
Does tygxc have a 'language issue'?
I doubt it.
Is he 'intellectually dishonest' as MEGA suggests?
At times - yes.
But I'm suggesting that's not his 'main issue'.
Its more like him wanting to apply his 'learned chess subjectivity' to the forum topic in ways that are invalid logically.
You can count on it that O is insanely and foolishly and pathetically jealous of tygxc.
And O is @Optimissed of course. But O is 'dismalized'. 
A condition self-inflicted by him upon himself.
--------------------------------------------
Note that tygxc had conceded more than once that chess cannot be solved with current technology.
By such concession - in my opinion he rescues himself from most claims of 'intellectual dishonesty'.
He admits to that reality.
So the discussion has mostly involved the semantics of the poorly coined 'weakly solving' phrase.
Elroch and I will probably always disagree about the demerits of that terminology.
But its those demerits that have led to the large number of postings here.
'weakly solving' gives tygxc all the footholds he needs to just keep subjectively and tactically working the vulnerability of that terminology.
And to thereby pursue his 'shortcuts'.
Will tygxc himself ever be 'solved'?
Looks like Nyet.
In his mind - he has already 'weakly solved' all of chess.
Years ago.
No matter how much logic you fire at him ...
it may as well be popcorn fired upon the battleship USS Missouri.

playerafar
llama_l wrote:

Is... is this multiple pages disagreeing on whether chess is solvable?

It is a 'working' of the very vulnerable and poorly coined terminology 'weakly solved'.
A gremlin at the center of the 'discussion'.
Regarding mathematical induction - I like an idea of 'getting' from k and to k + 1 that its going to work no matter how many times you keep adding 1.
As opposed to just algebra 'proving itself'.
Regarding the logic of it ...
similiar ideas are constantly used in many walks of real life without reference to algebra or mathematical notations of any kind.
People 'get the idea' anyway.

playerafar
llama_l wrote:
playerafar wrote:

similiar ideas are constantly used in many walks of real life without reference to algebra or mathematical notations of any kind.
People 'get the idea' anyway.

Yeah, probably.

'weakly solved' gives anybody all the subjective opportunity they want to simply arbitrate for themselves and even apply to others 'this is what we Care about' ...
tygxc is not going to let others tell him or decide for him 'what he should care about' ... nor 'what We should care about' 
and I tend to think that's righteous of tygxc.
There's a principle involved.
Its like persons trying to decide for others whether there's an afterlife or not.
Constantly goes on in the world. In both directions.

MEGACHE3SE

i think llama got auto/mod muted or smth. I would have been reported into the ground by tygxc if tygxc reported messages he simply didnt like, although i have been careful to make sure my messages never severely cross any lines, so it is possible.

"Regarding mathematical induction I was taught that you first prove something is valid for k.
Then you prove its valid for k+1."

i gave an example of a proof by induction as well as a mini proof for why induction works.

you've basically the idea right.

MEGACHE3SE
llama_l wrote:
 

I agree his stubbornness is exceptional. From time to time I peek at the lichess forums and I see people pillory him there too. To persist does give him an air of admirability.

As for his claims, if they're merely saying chess is solved, or solvable in some practical sense then that's fine.

wait tygxc spreads his misinformation on other sites too?!?!? goddam.

also, tygxc's issues are far more than just a modest definition of solvability. it's terrence howard levels of disconnect from scientific and mathematical reasoning.

playerafar
MEGACHE3SE wrote:

i think llama got auto/mod muted or smth. I would have been reported into the ground by tygxc if tygxc reported messages he simply didnt like, although i have been careful to make sure my messages never severely cross any lines, so it is highly possible.

"Regarding mathematical induction I was taught that you first prove something is valid for k.
Then you prove its valid for k+1."

i gave an example of a proof by induction as well as a mini proof for why induction works.

you've basically the idea right.

I'm glad llama is here.
Like yourself MEGA - llama is a very good poster.
-------------------
tygxc pushes the same stuff in other websites?
He uses the same name?
That's noteworthy.
------------------------------
tygxc reports people?
this is the first I've heard of such notions.
perhaps tygxc mentioned something to that effect?
Reporting people. It can be righteous.
But when O threatens to report people - he's never righteous.
And he's almost never righteous anyway.
------------------------------------------------

playerafar

Regarding mathematical induction ...
k is usually an integer. A nonzero positive integer.
Could there be cases where k is fractional or irrational or transcendental?
Pi and e are examples of transcendental numbers because they cannot be presented in a finite algebraic form.
They 'transcend algebra'.
Although each of them can be presented as a 'sum' of an 'infinite series' of finite algebraic terms.
Whereas the square root of two can be presented algebraically and is therefore not transcendental but is still 'irrational' as it cannot be presented in a form p/q where p and q are integers.
One third is 'rational' but 'repeating' because its numeric decimal form repeats endlessly - it isn't irrational because it can and is presentable in the form p/q where p/q are integers.
Point: see beginning of this post.