Chinese Chess came from India

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Avatar of long_quach

Story time.

I’m going to tell a story. 100% true story. To write naturally, I have to use real names and places.

Wei Li (Tony, his American pen name) and I worked at the World Bank in DC. I a lowly administrative assistant, he, some kind of analyst.

The kid is incredible. He’s Chinese, from China. At one time he taught mathematics and economics at the University of Maryland. Think about that for a moment. The kid is Chinese, educated in China, but is a professor in an American University.

We spent many hours sitting at lunch playing chess, and talking about cultures and history.

I: Vietnamese is half Chinese like English is half French.
He: The Morman invasion, 1066!

How did he know that? Nobody knows that. That is not common knowledge. I only know because I researched the history of English.

He: I love history.

The kid is incredible.

My score against him in Chinese chess is 5-5-2. It could have been 5-6-1.

I quibbled on perpetual check. I insisted that perpetual check is a draw because it is so in real life. Later thinking about it, he is right, because Chinese Chess rules are different from Western Chess rules, as it should be.

He quit the job and goes back to China to be a research professor in economics at the University of Beijing, I think.

He is the one that told me in ancient China, to be considered an educated person you have to learn the 4 arts: music, calligraphy, painting, and chess.

To be continued.

Avatar of long_quach

He was in America for a couple of weeks on an international conference talking about economics at universities.

He’s passing through D.C. and wanted to meet with me.

He chose the time 4:00 pm. I chose the place: Pentagon City Mall, in front of Panda Express, naturally.

We chit chat for about 2 hours.

I showed him the book I’m using to learn Chinese characters. Chinese Calligraphy. ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0789208705. I also showed him my Enso Buddha Board that I use to paint Chinese. You paint with water, it looks like black paint. When it dries, it disappears.

He has never seen anything like it before.

He came with his latest fancy tablet computer. Me and my paint brush and “ink”. They are the same thing, ok? One is just more fancy than the other.

He said Panda Express is not real Chinese food. It’s fake Chinese food and it’s disgusting.

I guess he’s right.

I asked what what China says about America and vice versa.

He: On the news, it says America is not a country by the people, it’s the rich elite that controls the government.

True.

America makes wars all over the world.

True.

America wants to make other countries to be their puppets.

True.

Me: China steals our trade secrets. China sells cheap knock offs.

It’s funny. We are in an American shopping mall, and everything in the shopping mall is made in China.

He stayed in a hotel. And in the drawer of his room is The Bible!

I told him that is what makes America great! Not all these stuffs in this shopping mall.

I gave him Bulfinch's Mythology previously when he left to go back to China. I mailed it to him in China, which is essentially the Bible before the Bible. It is essentially the Greek Bible that guided the Greek and Roman civilizations before . . . you guess it, my peeps, the Roman Catholic took over.

He observed something I did not observe. This kid is way too smart. He observed that in Greek mythology, there were many demi-gods. Men were closer to gods.

Hmm. That is true. In the Bible, only Jesus is semi-divine.

He: That represents a monopoly power concentrated in only one semi-divine Being.

This kid is too smart.

Me: Very good. That is how Christianity monopolizes its power.

He: Are you religious?

Me: Yes, I’m Catholic. Catholic means “public education” in Chinese. 公教 Công Giáo.

Somewhere along the line we talked about Taoism. He showed me I-Ching binary numbers. I knew that.

I: It’s on the South Korean flag. They stole it from China.

He: Korea stole a lot of things from China. Their holidays, etc.

He wants to come to America. Via Canada first. The kid is smart, Chinese smart. He knows that the shortest distance between 2 points is not a straight line but a round-about-way.

He said he wants to come to America because in China everybody is working 14 hours days, or something ridiculous like that.

He’s learning French (because Canada is French). But he has no one to speak French with.

I told him about what the Japanese called kata 型, form. Pretend fighting. Pretend you have a conversation by reciting French movies, Amalie, etc . . .

I noticed that he does not know what I”m talking about when I talk about kata. He is young and not exposed to all art. He’s a little scholarly and bookish.

He: But it is better with a real person.

I: Yes, of course.

I’m going to mail him the Bible. And Madame Bovary, the original French. The audio of Madame Bovary, in the original French is free on LibriVox.

I told him he can come to America if he divorces his wife and marry a “gringo/a”. (Then I have to explain the “gringo/a” joke.)

He: That is the fastest way.

Me: I’m just kidding. I’m talking non-sense. Don’t listen to me.

I had to quiz him.

I: Where does the Shaolin Temple 少林 (little forest, I had to tell I know what it means) come from?

He: Buddhism.

I: Where does Buddha comes from?

He: Nepal.

Thought to self. Hmm. That was a little too specific. In my head the “answer” was “India.”

I: Think about that. That is how great India was that China imported its religion.

He: But Hinduism is not as popular in India, as Buddhism is in China.

The kid is too smart.

I: Correct. Just as people know about The Old Testament from Christianity and not Judaism.

(I am smart too. I know what he said is true because it is the same thing in the Western counterpart.)

I: Now, where does Chinese chess come from?

He did not know. I told him. And I retold him in written form in this email I sent to him.

To be continued.

Avatar of long_quach

This is the letter I emailed him. This is an honest conversation between 2 friends, sitting face to face. There is no bs. This is honest between 2 people.

Hi Wei Li,

Tell the people back home this.

Chinese Chess

象棋 Elephant Game

象 That is a glyph of an elephant. 4 legs, 1 tail, 2 big ears, 1 trunk.

象 Elephant is a piece on the board.

相 Minister. is like the Bishop in Western Chess. The Bishop in Western Chess used to be called The Elephant.

Like Buddhism, Chinese Chess came from India. The Shaolin Temple 少林寺. 林 I know that is 2 trees, forest.

If Chinese Chess were invented in China, they would call it what the Japanese call their chess (India > China > Japan, like Buddhism)

Shogi

將棋

The game of the 將 General. The game of the Shogun 將軍.

That would be logical, because 將 is the center piece of the game.

象棋 Elephant Game is a very strange name compared to 將棋 the game of the Shogun.

I OCR (Optical Character Recognition) the definitive book of Chinese military. I call it by Japanese terminology (most Westerner’s exposure of China is through Japan), Bubishi.

The Wubei Zhi (Chinese 武備志) War Preparations (my translation).

There are no mention of Elephants in any military tactics of Wubei Zhi. The only mention of 象 Elephant is in Chinese Chess. 象棋. Check the attached file.

Same with Sun Tzu, The Art of War. No mention of elephants.

Chaturanga, from India, is the common ancestor of Chinese Chess and Western Chess.

In Chaturanga, the elephants move 2 squares diagonally. The Vizier moves 1 square diagonally. Like they do in Chinese Chess.

Chinese Chess is closer to Chaturanga than Western Chess.

Elephants are a part of the Indian military. You see it in the movie Alexander.

How War Elephants became part of Ancient Indian Armies

Elephants are iconic of India.

P.S.

The Fat Laughing Budha, Budai (Chinese: 布袋) is a rip-off of Ganesh, from India.

Long

Avatar of long_quach

Hi Wei Li

I forgot to tell you.

The pawns in Western Chess are in phalanx formation. Everybody has seen the movie The 300.

The pawns in Chinese Chess are in maniple formation.

Long

Avatar of long_quach

I actually OCR'ed the "Bubishi", just like in the movie Blade.

There is no mention of Elephants in military use. Only in the term Chinese Chess, Elephant Game. 象棋.

Avatar of AllOutForTheWin

Good story

Avatar of ice_cream_cake
 

I did not read the entirety of your posts. But I did notice numerous points that are inaccurate or incorrect.
1066: Norman invasion, not Morman invasion.
公教 does not mean public education. 教 in this context means religion, you can understand it as "teaching" perhaps. 公 in this context means "universal", which is also what the English word "Catholic" means. There is also another word for Catholicism, 天主教 (religion of the Heavenly Lord, a rough translation.)
Koreans did not "steal" Chinese holidays... Like many places in Asia, Korean culture is influenced by Chinese culture. But to my understanding, nobody says that the Lunar New Year for instance, is not Chinese-origin. If it has taken on distinctive Korean elements, why not call it Korean? There are some distressing arguments between Chinese and Koreans over which cultural elements originated where, but I have many ethnically Korean friends and I can tell you that I have never heard any of my friends wrongly state that a Chinese-origin element of Korean culture originated from Korea.
Also....a professor is probably at least 27, maaaybe 26 if he's REALLY bright. Dunno why someone that age is still a "kid".....but okay.

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:
 

1066: Norman invasion, not Morman invasion.

Typo. (A typographical error).

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

Also....a professor is probably at least 27, maaaybe 26 if he's REALLY bright. Dunno why someone that age is still a "kid".....but okay.

Because I'm twice his age, but not twice as smart.

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

公教 does not mean public education. 教 in this context means religion, you can understand it as "teaching" perhaps. 公 in this context means "universal", which is also what the English word "Catholic" means. There is also another word for Catholicism, 天主教 (religion of the Heavenly Lord, a rough translation.)

He and I talked about this exact thing.

天主教 (religion of the Heavenly Lord, a rough translation.)

That is a perfect word-for-word translation. A loose translation would be Christianity. But there is a difference between Christianity and Catholic.

Yes, I know Catholic means "universal teaching". What does that mean? That means "teaching for everybody". The Catholic Church invented "public education" to give the "teaching for everybody". They are synonymous.

Orthodox Church, has a specific meaning.

ortho = straight, Rooks moves orthogonally.

dox = teaching, as in doctrine, "doctor" = teacher, as in Doctor of Philosophy. Ph.D.

Orthodox means "straight teaching". They're giving it to you straight.

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

I have never heard any of my friends wrongly state that a Chinese-origin element of Korean culture originated from Korea.

In time it will be.

The Koreans and the Vietnamese have divorced themselves from Chinese.

In time, they will forget their Chinese roots. And they will say everything is invented in "fill in the blank of your country".

The Japanese are smart. They still retain Kanji, which is 90% Chinese.

Just as China forgets its Indian roots.

Heck, India is forgetting its Indian roots.

Avatar of ice_cream_cake
long_quach wrote:
ice_cream_cake wrote:

I have never heard any of my friends wrongly state that a Chinese-origin element of Korean culture originated from Korea.

In time it will be.

The Koreans and the Vietnamese have divorced themselves from Chinese.

In time, they will forget their Chinese roots. And they will say everything is invented in "fill in the blank of your country".

The Japanese are smart. They still retain Kanji, which is 90% Chinese.

Just as China forgets its Indian roots.

Heck, India is forgetting its Indian roots.

Aside from whether it will be so (I find it unlikely, just as Americans haven't forgotten say, the Romans....though for a while they have to a nontrivial extent forgotten some *other* important aspects of their history....), I do not think it is necessarily a bad thing. I personally think that the fixation of (some) Chinese people on emphasizing China's cultural influence on other Asian countries is rather chauvinistic, and that it is quite valid to recognize the distinctive cultural elements that other cultures have introduced into Chinese-origin cultural elements.
I do not think that China has forgotten its Indian influence (not roots). Many important elements of Chinese culture came from India, but many originated from China. I know a professor from Fudan University who taught me some classical Chinese and she was telling our class about the deep cultural influence that India has had on China....and it's undeniable that Buddhism has left a deep mark on Chinese culture and I haven't met anybody who has seemed ignorant of this...

Regarding India forgetting its Indian roots, I don't think it is a bad thing for cultures to change over time; however, such a statement is a very broad generalization and certainly there are aspects of any culture that change over time and other aspects that are retained (and of course there is overlap, re-interpretation, etc.). I unfortunately don't know enough about India in particular to say much here.
On another note......I kind of feel like this topic seems to be going in the direction of the "Off-Topic" forum. happy.png

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

I kind of feel like this topic seems to be going in the direction of the "Off-Topic" forum.

I don't know how more "on topic" I can be.

Everyone in the Western world knows that Chess came from India.

Yet, we have another descendant of Chaturanga, Chinese Chess.

There are people in China who do not know that Chinese Chess came from India.

Worse, there are Chinese running around saying Chinese Chess came from China, originally.

"He who controls the present controls the past.

He who controls the past . . . controls the future" - George Orwell 1984 (The novel, not the year).

I don't know how more "on topic" I can be.

I am quoting George Orwell.

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

I personally think that the fixation of (some) Chinese people on emphasizing China's cultural influence on other Asian countries is rather chauvinistic,

You're missing the point. You are reading it "Yang" as opposed to reading it "Yin".

I'm not talking about China claiming its contributions to other countries.

I'm talking about other countries forgetting things that came from China.

And I'm talking about that because

China forget things that came from India, chess.

I'm speaking to Chinese people, to give them a perspective. You have forgotten where chess came from, just as people will forget the things that came from you.

On the S.A.T. test, that's called an "analogy".

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:

I'm speaking to Chinese people, to give them a perspective. You have forgotten where chess came from, just as people will forget the things that came from you.

That is so cliche, it's in the Bible. I just paraphrased the Bible.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Ecclesiastes 1:9

That's from the "universal teaching" I received. I passed my "catechism".

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:

Worse, there are Chinese running around saying Chinese Chess came from China, originally.

"He who controls the present controls the past.

He who controls the past . . . controls the future" - George Orwell 1984 (The novel, not the year).

I don't know how more "on topic" I can be.

I am quoting George Orwell.

There is even an overt joke about it. How Communist countries claim everything came from them.

I don't know how "more" on topic I can be.

Avatar of long_quach

To Japanese people, The Throne of Blood is a re-telling of Macbeth.

To Americans, The Magnificent Seven is a re-telling of The Seven Samurai.

Ok?

We are all educated now?

Again, this is not some Internet bs. This is a face-to-face conversation between 2 equals in real life.

Avatar of Xandon717

Wow incredible

Avatar of long_quach
ice_cream_cake wrote:

I know a professor from Fudan University who taught me some classical Chinese and she was telling our class about the deep cultural influence that India has had on China....and it's undeniable that Buddhism has left a deep mark on Chinese culture and I haven't met anybody who has seemed ignorant of this...

Wow. Straight from the horse's mouth, sort of speak.

Do you have her email? Or the email of Fudan University department of history email?

Ask her, or the department of history, where Chinese Chess comes from?

I want to hear it, straight from the horse's mouth, sort of speak.

Avatar of long_quach
long_quach wrote:

Ask her, or the department of history, where Chinese Chess comes from?

I want to hear it, straight from the horse's mouth, sort of speak.

And don't tell me it came to somebody in a dream.

I'm scratching off that answer. That one doesn't count.

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