Computer Analysis

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Avatar of -waller-
Scottrf wrote:
batgirl wrote:

This totally misses the point of this thread.

I don't think so. Some moves may be objectively weaker, but harder to play against. Arguably the player who played the 'weaker' move is stronger.

If Tal's sacrifice is bad, but it takes a 17 move combination to defend against, it may be a good practical decision.

Depends whether you're judging the play from a human perspective or "objectively". Think the OP was looking for "objective" strength

Avatar of enjaytee

until chess is solved, there is no objective strength. so, no, it can't be measured by computer.

Avatar of Scottrf
-waller- wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
batgirl wrote:

This totally misses the point of this thread.

I don't think so. Some moves may be objectively weaker, but harder to play against. Arguably the player who played the 'weaker' move is stronger.

If Tal's sacrifice is bad, but it takes a 17 move combination to defend against, it may be a good practical decision.

Depends whether you're judging the play from a human perspective or "objectively". Think the OP was looking for "objective" strength

Then I believe enjaytee is correct. There is only engine matchup strength, or practical strength. Objective strength is as of yet unknown.

Avatar of enjaytee

and even where it is solved, if I make a mistake in a 6 piece endgame, but still win, how can anyone call it a mistake? I don't have the tablebase, neither does my opponent. If I use my knowledge of the fact that my opponent doesn't have the tablebase, I'm playing better than a computer, even if the computer thinks I made a mistake. the computer is wrong.

Avatar of Scottrf
enjaytee wrote:

and even where it is solved, if I make a mistake in a 6 piece endgame, but still win, how can anyone call it a mistake? I don't have the tablebase, neither does my opponent. If I use my knowledge of the fact that my opponent doesn't have the tablebase, I'm playing better than a computer, even if the computer thinks I made a mistake. the computer is wrong.

Yeah I remember watching a Nakamura game on chessbomb. He made a move against Yifan which was clearly simplifying to an easily winning endgame but everyone was criticising him because Houdini turned red. That has nothing to do with strength, he knew there were 'better' moves, but his was the easiest.

Avatar of enjaytee
Scottrf wrote:

Yeah I remember watching a Nakamura game on chessbomb. He made a move against Yifan which was clearly simplifying to an easily winning endgame but everyone was criticising him because Houdini turned red. That has nothing to do with strength, he knew there were 'better' moves, but his was the easiest.

I think J. T Kirk vs Mr Spock, 1967, 3d chess variant, 1-0, is the canonical example.

Avatar of enjaytee

the full scoresheet will be available in 250 years.

Avatar of enjaytee

it's horrible posting the last thing. makes me feel like at a party joining a conversation and everone walks away in different directions mumbling. everyone here knows that feeling right, since you all play chess? somebody at least come in and say 'we can't post in this thread any more because some idiot started talking about Spock'.

Avatar of chess2Knights

Batgirl, the simple answer is yes.

Avatar of Jim_Ratliff

Rather than matching the player's moves to some set of top-n computer moves, there's a more general and likely more robust metric: Use the computer to estimate the value of the player's actual move; this could be the difference between the evaluation of the position before the player moves and the evaluation of the position immediately after the player moves. With best play, the evaluation should not drop (from that player's perspective) from right before to right after that player's move (because the evaluation assumes the player will play the best move). Therefore, the smaller the drop as a result of the move, the better the move.

Avatar of TBentley

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this yet: http://en.chessbase.com/post/the-quality-of-play-at-the-candidates-090413http://en.chessbase.com/post/computer-analysis-of-world-champions (I think there's a couple others out there).

Avatar of SteveCollyer
batgirl wrote:

Does computer analysis, performed under controled conditions, indicate the objective strength of a player?

In other words, does a higher % match of moves to a very strong engine's (on a upscale system) top few moves over many games indicate a stronger player?

It's true that Super GM's match with 3200 Elo rated engines to a greater degree than GM's, who in turn match to a greater degree than IM's, FM's & so on.

Engine match rate correlation does not really test for comparative strength though, it tests for engine-like play.  Even Carlsen, Kasparov, Fischer & Kramnik only play engine-like chess to a certain degree.  Humans play to a series of human plans.  Engines constantly go off on tangents of tiny fractions of a pawn at depths of 20 ply where they see a minuscule advantage that the very best human player wouldn't see.

When Super GM's have a perceived advantage in a position they will try to simplify & play safe & solid moves.  They won't go for an incredibly sharp, risky tactical line which would further win the already won game. 

Avatar of Irontiger

Short answer : yes.

But technicalities are hard to overcome. For example, do you trim out trivially winning positions ?

Avatar of batgirl

Paul Morphy's Chess Strength.