I don't mind exclamation points -- as long as they don't show up after my opponent's moves on the scoresheet! :)
Conditional move etiquette
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RoseQueen1985 wrote:
^ if a forced move "surprises" and "schocks" people, this people shouldn't play chess. Or do anything meaningful in life. It's obvious their weak little hearts will suffer from anything.
Why do you assume that conditional moves are all forced? The truly unsettling conditional moves are the ones that are entirely unforced and that go for 2-3+ moves, because it shows your opponent that you know exactly what he is going to do before he even does it.
In any sport whatsoever, having an opponent that can predict your every move is very unsettling.
Oh yeah, I will definetely drag a game if my opponent starts with the conditional moves. It is ALWAYS used to rub it in over a mistake you made.
To those who said that it is just a harmless resource to speed up games, I ask how many times did you use conditional moves to speed up a line in which you were losing. 
I don't think that's it at all, and intentionally dragging a game is kind of a jerk move no matter the reason. I also think you'll find dragging a game out more likely to increase the amount of conditionals used by your opponent -- isn't this at odds with what you want?
I'm sure conditionals are used for a myriad of reasons here, I wouldn't presume one motivation over another.
rnunesmagalhaes wrote:
Oh yeah, I will definetely drag a game if my opponent starts with the conditional moves. It is ALWAYS used to rub it in over a mistake you made.
To those who said that it is just a harmless resource to speed up games, I ask how many times did you use conditional moves to speed up a line in which you were losing.
I always use conditional moves when I think I know what my opponent will do. Sometimes it's a piece swap, and I'm pretty sure he will recapture, for example. If you feel I'm rubbing it in when I do that, you have bigger problems than conditional moves......
carric wrote:
Roamingbull wrote:
This is an interesting post. I guess I am not yet a member of the inner society of Chess players and know the codes that go with it, but I would have thought, and still do, that each move you make is a move to win the game. Be it a defensive move, or an aggressive move, each move is calculated to achieve your goal. Win the game. If that is setting one up, to move in the direction you need them to go, I would have thought this would be the exact thing one would want to do. In return, they will be doing the same to me. I know when someone is setting me up, and I can see it, its very rewarding to get out of it, even if the end result is my loosing the game. Its a challenge for me either way, on the receiving end or if I am setting it up.
Maybe I just don’t understand what a conditional move is? Can someone elaborate?
To answer Roamingbull's question, a conditional move is a tool in correspondence chess for after you've made your move. Go back to the game and click 'Conditional Moves.' You make a move for your opponent, then a move for yourself. This only comes into effect if your opponent makes that move. Basically, it's setting up an automatic reaction to a particular move -- if that move is made, you respond with a set move.
Thanks for clearing that up...I get it now...Feel a little dumb actually considering what I though it was. Doh! thanks
That level of play is a bit out of my league right now...
-Tony
Sep 4, 2011
0
#108
YeOldeWildman wrote:
I don't mind exclamation points -- as long as they don't show up after my opponent's moves on the scoresheet! :)
I think it'd be awesome if the moves tab were judgemental. Make a move, and notice that is now has "??" after it :p
Sep 4, 2011
0
#109
@ rnunesmagalhaes: So if I were playing Black and I got to the board first and put in the conditional moves:
if 1.e4 then 1...e5 and if 2.Nf3 then 2...Nc6
or
if 1.d4 then 1...d5 and if 2.c4 then 2...c6
then you would interpret that as my rubbing your nose in a mistake? Frankly, I think that's just plain silly - unless you think merely playing against me is a serious error, it which case I'm rather flattered... :)
Or if we were playing this game (I'm White):
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6
and then I put in:
if 4...dxc6 then 5.O-O
You would be similarly insulted? Again, what could I possibly be doing besides trying to move the game along expediently? And you'd just start playing slowly just out of spite?
Or in some position where I was exchanging pawns and put in my reply to your obvious recapture, you'd find it a mortal insult?
Ditto if I gave check and you only had one legal move and I put in my reply to it conditionally?
I submit that it is possible that SOME players my use conditional moves in won positions to gloat, but to assert that conditional moves are ALWAYS meant to be insulting is simply borrowing trouble IMNSHO.
Sep 4, 2011
0
#110
I just now laid down some conditional moves in game I'm currently losing. My moves will be forced; my opponent's aren't, though they are quite obvious moves.
Hopefully he won't find it too disturbing that I put conditional moves in while he's closing in on my King.
TheGrobe wrote:
I don't think that's it at all, and intentionally dragging a game is kind of a jerk move no matter the reason. I also think you'll find dragging a game out more likely to increase the amount of conditionals used by your opponent -- isn't this at odds with what you want?
I'm sure conditionals are used for a myriad of reasons here, I wouldn't presume one motivation over another.
Yeah, I am afraid it is a jerk move.
Sep 4, 2011
0
#112
I don't find it at all offensive if an opponent uses conditional moves, but if there is a chain of conditionals, I am slightly disconcerted when the chain ends.
I think "Hmm, did I do something wrong on that last move", as I examine whether I broke the chain because my opponent found a better move for me than I did ;)
rooperi wrote:
rnunesmagalhaes wrote:
Oh yeah, I will definetely drag a game if my opponent starts with the conditional moves. It is ALWAYS used to rub it in over a mistake you made.
To those who said that it is just a harmless resource to speed up games, I ask how many times did you use conditional moves to speed up a line in which you were losing.
I always use conditional moves when I think I know what my opponent will do. Sometimes it's a piece swap, and I'm pretty sure he will recapture, for example. If you feel I'm rubbing it in when I do that, you have bigger problems than conditional moves......
You got it, this is but one of my numerous flaws! I am still to see someone using conditional moves on a losing line, though.
DavidStyles wrote:
I just now laid down some conditional moves in game I'm currently losing. My moves will be forced; my opponent's aren't, though they are quite obvious moves.
Hopefully he won't find it too disturbing that I put conditional moves in while he's closing in on my King.
He would probably welcome it, that means the game can now be over in minutes instead of days.
rnunesmagalhaes wrote:
Oh yeah, I will definetely drag a game if my opponent starts with the conditional moves. It is ALWAYS used to rub it in over a mistake you made.
To those who said that it is just a harmless resource to speed up games, I ask how many times did you use conditional moves to speed up a line in which you were losing.
I resign in lost positions -- that's the fastest (and most considerate) way to get them over with.
YeOldeWildman wrote:
@ rnunesmagalhaes: So if I were playing Black and I got to the board first and put in the conditional moves:
if 1.e4 then 1...e5 and if 2.Nf3 then 2...Nc6
or
if 1.d4 then 1...d5 and if 2.c4 then 2...c6
then you would interpret that as my rubbing your nose in a mistake? Frankly, I think that's just plain silly - unless you think merely playing against me is a serious error, it which case I'm rather flattered... :)
Or if we were playing this game (I'm White):
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6
and then I put in:
if 4...dxc6 then 5.O-O
You would be similarly insulted? Again, what could I possibly be doing besides trying to move the game along expediently? And you'd just start playing slowly just out of spite?
Or in some position where I was exchanging pawns and put in my reply to your obvious recapture, you'd find it a mortal insult?
Ditto if I gave check and you only had one legal move and I put in my reply to it conditionally?
I submit that it is possible that SOME players my use conditional moves in won positions to gloat, but to assert that conditional moves are ALWAYS meant to be insulting is simply borrowing trouble IMNSHO.
I have never been caught by conditional moves in the situations you mentioned (openings and obvious recaptures), and I dare say I doubt you have encountered them as often as you encountered people just willing to rub it in. Then again, I might just be unlucky.
TheGrobe wrote:
rnunesmagalhaes wrote:
Oh yeah, I will definetely drag a game if my opponent starts with the conditional moves. It is ALWAYS used to rub it in over a mistake you made.
To those who said that it is just a harmless resource to speed up games, I ask how many times did you use conditional moves to speed up a line in which you were losing.
I resign in lost positions -- that's the fastest (and most considerate) way to get them over with.
I agree, but not all losing lines require resignation, you could just go from a winning position to a dubious/drawish one. I dont remember seeing conditional moves on those cases.
Sep 4, 2011
0
#118
rooperi wrote:
DavidStyles wrote:
I just now laid down some conditional moves in game I'm currently losing. My moves will be forced; my opponent's aren't, though they are quite obvious moves.
Hopefully he won't find it too disturbing that I put conditional moves in while he's closing in on my King.
He would probably welcome it, that means the game can now be over in minutes instead of days.
Yes, I was being ironic, I'm sure he'd rather I sped it up.
That said, when I say "losing", I do mean "losing" and not "lost". Things look rather dire but I don't see an immediate mate threat. I'm just likely to lose a bit of material and have his pieces dangerously close to my King.
I'll probably lose overall, as he's some hundreds of points more highly rated than I - but then, it's a rematch for a game in which I beat him, so who knows.
Whatever the outcome, yes, I'm sure he won't mind a bit that I'm using conditional moves. I just wanted to put it on the table as an example of how the use of conditional moves can't always mean "Haha, I'm so superior".
rooperi wrote:
So, if you have only one legal move, you still want to take your time?
I guess that's up to you, although I'd never understand that.
A forced series of moves, usually lead to a critical position. I like to be thinking about critical positions several days in advance of their arrival on the board. Another reason I would wait to make an obvious moves is that I am usually playing about 12-15 CC games. If I instantly play all the obvious moves, it will create a log jam of games that all have critical positions. I prefer to spread my critical decisions out over a period of time. Thirdly if you quickly play the opening moves of a game, it is very hard to get your head in the game when you reach a point where you have to start making critical decisions. Finally if you look at Capablanca's game, you will discover a lot of times that his opponent thought Capablanca had an obvious recapture, and Capablanca found a decisive zwischenzug.
If I was playing OTB and initiated a queen trade, I would in no way shape of form be offended if my opponent very quickly recaptured in real life. In fact, I would expect it! It would indicate to me that he/she had evaluated my capture as a likely move and already felt that recapture was the appropriate response. It would probably *not* indicate to me that my opponent was trying to personally inflict some kind of emotional anguish on me.
I really don't see the difference between conditional moves and an OTB opponent making rapid responses to something that was expected. And if I'm getting my butt handed to me on a platter by a much better player, it doesn't really mattter if it's done quickly or not, so again it doesn't bother me. I use conditional moves all the time to respond to obvious exchanges, mainly because I don't want to lose good playing time!
If you are the kind of person who is predisposed to see everything as some kind of personal slight against you, then perhaps conditional moves on a chess website are the least of your worries.
I think perhaps part of the issue is that people can find the experience of triggering a contidtional move a bit unsettling. After all, you hit the submit button and expect that the next page you see is going to be your next game and, surprise, surprise, it turns out to be your move again in the same game. Some people don't like surprises - especially when they're playing chess! :)
Of course, that's more a function of how the website software operates than a "message" from your opponent - unless your opponent is deliberately trying to exploit the phenomenon to upset you. The problem is: how do you tell the difference between someone who is using conditional moves in a genuine effort to accelerate play (something that is generally considered to be good etiquette given the number of people who complain about opponents moving slowly...) and psychological warfare?
For me, I've decided the answer doesn't matter since being startled by a conditional move is really rather trivial in the overall scheme of things. Sometimes a conditional move is just a conditional move. The world is full of enough hostility that unnecessarily adding to it by assuming insult where none may be (and likely is not) intended is just bad karma.
The easy fix for that would be to simply have the games cycle as normal rather than stay on the same game.
Yeah, and maybe remove the exclamation mark after the announcement. That's probably what startles players the most, it comes across as something dagerous or unusual.