Descending Olympus

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introuble2

How he was seen in 1950...

 

 

tomfinney123

my bad batgirl , but cc should have paid you lol , 

introuble2

*However I strongly protest with lawsuits etc... The aforementioned link on Rossolimo was posted by mehappy.png

fabelhaft

For help on how to write quality content please see articles like the following:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/football-week-three-quarterbacks-chess

https://www.chess.com/article/view/james-holzhauer-chess-jeopardy

https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-sports-plays

https://www.chess.com/article/view/overrated-chess-players

 

 

 

RoaringPawn

David gave an interview in 2003 to the Russian Ogoniok com. He was very bitter about the state of affairs in modern chess. Having lost its creative and artistic elements, chess became hostage of Botvinnik's Soviet school of chess (basically focusing on studying openings), then introduction of metalic m*orons (in which Botvinnik also took an important part) which finally killed the elite chess and brought  it to its terminal stage.

Here are a few excerpts from the interview you can find in full on my blog (not a perfect translation to be sure, yet good enough for you to see Bronstein's view on modern chess)

STAKHOV: What is the meaning of modern chess?

BRONSTEIN: Just to take control over sixteen unoccupied central squares, the two central horizontals. Art of chess has long ago been reduced to a struggle for space. So following that logic, he who knows how to take up and use space is a chess pro, while he who doesn’t is an amateur.

STAKHOV: Chess players are so smart, with a stunning intellect and you think the meaning of chess lies only in these squares?

BRONSTEIN: Chess has lost its creative component. It is no more the game it used to be fifty years ago. The primacy of the struggle for space has led to the fact that chess ceased to be a game. Formerly, chess was entertainment to people of culture who played it in their free time. After chess has been reduced to a mere struggle for space, culture is no more relevant.

STAKHOV: But how about the “theater” of chess pieces?

BRONSTEIN: You may watch an interesting theatrical performance, or perhaps you leave the theater after a few minutes. In the past chess was sort of intriguing, pieces somehow get engaged and performance begins. Each actor puts forward his plan, mounts challenge, shows boldness. But only the result is important now. The relationship between chess players have turned into a relationship between boxers before a fight. They both stage various acts of psychological intimidation. Most importantly, everything the leading chess players have to study to get there has long been known in the special literature.
.
.
.
STAKHOV: So where did the art of chess go?

BRONSTEIN: The art apparently existed before Botvinnik introduced the system for preparation in chess in his 1936 article. The Soviet chess school was, after Botvinnik, based on research. What did they research? The opening.
.
BRONSTEIN: They say that Soviet school of chess is the best, but I don’t think so.

STAKHOV: But it is still true, if you look at results…

BRONSTEIN: Well it all began in 1945 when we played the match with the US. And won it. Do you know how come that we won? We studied the openings. And we didn’t give them the chance to get out of the opening. We beat them on their half of the board. They didn’t get off the ground.
.
BRONSTEIN: Yes, but that was uninteresting to the audience! In chess, like in the theater, there should be lively play, not clash of strategies. Actors do not go on stage to do the drill. The audience will chase them out. They should perform a play. Likewise, the chess players should be playing, not going over the same lines over and over again.

fabelhaft

Here is another chess history gem, listing "the 12 most interesting" players in the history of the game. It turns out that Fischer, Kasparov and Carlsen are the three most interesting players ever. Nakamura is the 7th most interesting player ever, Caruana the 11th :-)

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-12-most-interesting-chess-players-ever

One could maybe imagine Spielmann, Blackburne, Pillsbury, Keres, Sultan Khan, Bronstein or guys like that? Some would maybe mention Nezhmetdinov or Charousek. No, Caruana and Nakamura are more "interesting" :-) And what makes for example Anand and Kramnik more "interesting" than Lasker?

But there are many facts to learn: There is no denying that Caruana is one of the most compelling chess players in history, Capablanca absolutely destroyed his contemporaries during his reign as World Champion (hmm New York 1924, Moscow 1925, first title defense...), Tal was easily the most brilliant and creative attacking player ever, etc.

OK, articles like these are not to be taken too seriously of course, but they do feel a bit, well, shallow...

XAJIK
RoaringPawn написал:
XAJIK wrote:

Great chess books - in my opinion, are those that are written with great depth of

One book that comes to mind as a good candidat to be useful to a wide audience (from beginners all the way up) might be Ilya Maizeli's Shakhmaty, or Soviet Chess Primer as it's published in English

 

Yes this is an excellent book. This type of chess bboks is very rare/

batgirl
introuble2 wrote:

*However I strongly protest with lawsuits etc... The aforementioned link on Rossolimo was posted by me

O dear!  I apologize.  I went right to the comments to rerread what I was looking for and at first I thought I was in this blog: Art vs. Machine, Soul vs. Calculation but then I realized I was in the Rossolimo blog. I guess I got all my wires crossed from juggling too may things at once (don't you just love a mixed metaphor?).  I'll change the text to reflect the reality.

introuble2
batgirl wrote:
introuble2 wrote:

*However I strongly protest with lawsuits etc... The aforementioned link on Rossolimo was posted by me

O dear!  I apologize.  I went right to the comments to rerread what I was looking for and at first I thought I was in this blog: Art vs. Machine, Soul vs. Calculation but then I realized I was in the Rossolimo blog. I guess I got all my wires crossed from juggling too may things at once (don't you just love a mixed metaphor?).  I'll change the text to reflect the reality.

A chance for me for self advertisinghappy.png

batgirl
fabelhaft wrote:

Here is another chess history gem, listing "the 12 most interesting" players in the history of the game. It turns out that Fischer, Kasparov and Carlsen are the three most interesting players ever. Nakamura is the 7th most interesting player ever, Caruana the 11th :-)

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the-12-most-interesting-chess-players-ever

One could maybe imagine Spielmann, Blackburne, Pillsbury, Keres, Sultan Khan, Bronstein or guys like that? Some would maybe mention Nezhmetdinov or Charousek. No, Caruana and Nakamura are more "interesting" :-) And what makes for example Anand and Kramnik more "interesting" than Lasker?

But there are many facts to learn: There is no denying that Caruana is one of the most compelling chess players in history, Capablanca absolutely destroyed his contemporaries during his reign as World Champion (hmm New York 1924, Moscow 1925, first title defense...), Tal was easily the most brilliant and creative attacking player ever, etc.

OK, articles like these are not to be taken too seriously of course, but they do feel a bit, well, shallow...

It was written by chess.com's own Fluffmeister.  

batgirl
introuble2 wrote:
batgirl wrote:
introuble2 wrote:

*However I strongly protest with lawsuits etc... The aforementioned link on Rossolimo was posted by me

O dear!  I apologize.  I went right to the comments to rerread what I was looking for and at first I thought I was in this blog: Art vs. Machine, Soul vs. Calculation but then I realized I was in the Rossolimo blog. I guess I got all my wires crossed from juggling too may things at once (don't you just love a mixed metaphor?).  I'll change the text to reflect the reality.

A chance for me for self advertising

There's nothing wrong with self-promotion.  Writers write to be read.
At least I got the link right.

batgirl
RoaringPawn wrote:

David gave an interview in 2003 to the Russian Ogoniok com. He was very bitter about the state of affairs in modern chess. Having lost its creative and artistic elements, chess became hostage of Botvinnik's Soviet school of chess (basically focusing on studying openings), then introduction of metalic m*orons (in which Botvinnik also took an important part) which finally killed the elite chess and brought  it to its terminal stage.

Here are a few excerpts from the interview you can find in full on my blog (not a perfect translation to be sure, yet good enough for you to see Bronstein's view on modern chess)

STAKHOV: What is the meaning of modern chess?

BRONSTEIN: Just to take control over sixteen unoccupied central squares, the two central horizontals. Art of chess has long ago been reduced to a struggle for space. So following that logic, he who knows how to take up and use space is a chess pro, while he who doesn’t is an amateur.

STAKHOV: Chess players are so smart, with a stunning intellect and you think the meaning of chess lies only in these squares?

BRONSTEIN: Chess has lost its creative component. It is no more the game it used to be fifty years ago. The primacy of the struggle for space has led to the fact that chess ceased to be a game. Formerly, chess was entertainment to people of culture who played it in their free time. After chess has been reduced to a mere struggle for space, culture is no more relevant.

STAKHOV: But how about the “theater” of chess pieces?

BRONSTEIN: You may watch an interesting theatrical performance, or perhaps you leave the theater after a few minutes. In the past chess was sort of intriguing, pieces somehow get engaged and performance begins. Each actor puts forward his plan, mounts challenge, shows boldness. But only the result is important now. The relationship between chess players have turned into a relationship between boxers before a fight. They both stage various acts of psychological intimidation. Most importantly, everything the leading chess players have to study to get there has long been known in the special literature.
.
.
.
STAKHOV: So where did the art of chess go?

BRONSTEIN: The art apparently existed before Botvinnik introduced the system for preparation in chess in his 1936 article. The Soviet chess school was, after Botvinnik, based on research. What did they research? The opening.
.
BRONSTEIN: They say that Soviet school of chess is the best, but I don’t think so.

STAKHOV: But it is still true, if you look at results…

BRONSTEIN: Well it all began in 1945 when we played the match with the US. And won it. Do you know how come that we won? We studied the openings. And we didn’t give them the chance to get out of the opening. We beat them on their half of the board. They didn’t get off the ground.
.
BRONSTEIN: Yes, but that was uninteresting to the audience! In chess, like in the theater, there should be lively play, not clash of strategies. Actors do not go on stage to do the drill. The audience will chase them out. They should perform a play. Likewise, the chess players should be playing, not going over the same lines over and over again.

Thanks for the interesting interview. So, we're all space cadets?

In the 1945 radio match Bronstein mentioned Ragosin played the Two Knights' Defense against Herman Seidman.  Even though he won the game, Ragosin was punished for his choice of opening since the Soviets felt the Americans has researched it better.  

batgirl
fabelhaft wrote:

The top players of our time will probably never write books of the sort the oldies did, they make videos and stuff like that instead.

Yes. The times they are a-changin'

batgirl
fabelhaft wrote:
batgirl wrote:
fabelhaft wrote:

I always thought Larsen was amazing at writing for amateurs, 

Kasparov mentioned Larsen: "Yes, there is Fischer's excellent book, and the books of Larsen, Botvinnik and Korchnoi, but no one has devoted so much attention to the popularization of chess as Bronstein."

Bronstein was a genius and very original thinker, but the Soviets were also brought up with their own players as teachers. Scandinavian Carlsen instead mentioned in an interview what an influence Larsen had been on him (his first chess book was the one on planning), and Kramnik who was sitting beside him countered with ”in Russia we consider Larsen to be a patzer” or something like that. In his next game against Kramnik Carlsen played the old Larsen favourite 1. f4 and won :-)

Kasparov has also talked about how Botvinnik used to scare him as a kid about ending up as Larsen if he didn’t stop being too original. And still Larsen was awarded the Chess Oscar for best player in the world in the late 60s… But it is all a question of taste and background, I haven’t heard anyone have anything but praise for Bronstein though. I like him too, but find Larsen more accessible. Maybe stronger players get more out of Bronstein.

Back in the late 1990s I used to play some chess on the Danish FICS. In fact, they were trying to incorporate computer accounts at the time and I helped test their functionality (just by playing them). The guy who managed the site went by the handle "The Dane."  I used to imagine I was talking to Bent Larsen (OK, I was only 22). 

anpu3

One book about Bronstein that I have enjoyed is "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" by Bronstein & Furstenberg.  It's mostly a collection of games.  Most have commentary by Bronstein about the games & matches.  All kinds of anecdotes and some pictures from his youth.  It is fun and instructive.

loudmammothfeast

awesome article

JamieDelarosa

Loved your blog, Sarah! Thanks.

I have quoted from Bronstein's "Notes" in several of my articles on Soviet "sporting tactics."

Did you know that, after the drawn championship match versus Botvinnik, the Soviets referred to Bronstein as "vice world champion"?

XequeYourself
llama47 wrote:

I talked to a professor once, and when I summed up one set of ideas with an easy to remember statement (as if to say, this is how it could be taught), he said "yes, but that's not a good way to teach it." I often wonder what exactly he meant by that... as if leaving a trail of bread crumbs and letting students find their own way was better. Maybe there were other skills or knowledge to be learned in the journey itself, that sort of thing.

 

Interesting parallel with the term "pedagogy" here, roughly speaking the word originated from ancient greek meaning "to lead a child". If you're engaging with pedagogy then you are leading the learner on their learning journey rather than simply presenting them with information.

Obviously I have no idea what the professor meant but there's a term in education called "scaffolding" which might help explain why the easy summary statement was rejected in favour of leaving a trail of breadcrumbs, as it were. 

When building a skyscraper, scaffolding will go up ahead of and around the building, but when the building nears completion the scaffolding comes down slowly. Eventually it's withdrawn entirely and the building stands on its own.

So rather than teaching through an easy summary statement, a lot of teachers will act like a scaffolder, slowly building upward from a low starting point, adding levels of knowledge piece by piece to slowly assemble the knowledge needed to support a concept and then slowly withdrawing themselves until the student is standing on their own (in a 2 hour, 90 question exam which begins.......NOW). 

batgirl
JamieDelarosa wrote:

Did you know that, after the drawn championship match versus Botvinnik, the Soviets referred to Bronstein as "vice world champion"?

Nope. That's the first I've heard that. That was a particularly, ummm, interesting match between opposing styles and political strata during particularly interesting times. 

JamieDelarosa wrote:

I have quoted from Bronstein's "Notes" in several of my articles on Soviet "sporting tactics."

This would have been a good time to have provided direct links to those articles. 

Bronstein's book is terrific.

batgirl
introuble2 wrote:

How he was seen in 1950...

That's really a great cartoon!