Do I play too passively?

   Sorry I went to the engine eval; it tends to stifle discussion. I didn't spend a lot of time on the engine's Ba5 continuation (I was interested in my refuted attack.) ... you'll have to take it up with Stockfish. 

I mistakenly wrote ...Be8, i meant ...Bd8. Anyway, i had already looked at Ba5 and i'm sure white's bishop would be lost without a4.

17. Rad1 b5 18. Ba5 Bd8

19. Bc3 and if black plays Bf6 we're back at the beginning of move 18. If black plays Bc7, it would be different but a4 would still need to be played to save the bishop.

19. Rxd8 Rxd8. If white doesn't recapture, then black will be up the exchange, and white temporarily lost control of the d-file and the two bishops are preoccupied. 20. Bxd8 Qxd8 and a4 will need to be played to save the bishop.

19. Bxd8 Rxd8 is similar to 19. Rxd8. The black queen will end up at b6 and a4 is needed to save the bishop.

19. Qb4 Bxa5 20. Qxa5 Qb6 If 21. Qxb6 axb6 and the bishop remains trapped without a4. 21. Qa3 b4 and the white queen can no longer defend the bishop.

You've gotten fixated on "trapping" the bishop, missing White's threats.

17. Rad1 b5 18. Ba5 Bd8?

19.f6! +- White is winning material (no engine assistance used here.) 

The power of f6 with the Q on the g file and rook on the f file is what I was talking about with White having a Kingside attack. White nearly has multiple sac's to a won game --  but, if Black spots the attack, let's white commit, and then takes a tempo to play Kh8, white is busted (grrrr.) 

Nice. I did miss that. So, 18...Kh8 first? That bishop isn't going anywhere so an in between move is a good idea.

Edit: Two things. 1. I just wanted to add that i do think you're right about Rad1, though the threat of losing the bishop would affect the choice of many weaker players. 2. I'm not sure i'd consider the Bird opening to be passive. I'd actually consider it to be more aggressive since it's an attempt to control the center at the cost of opening up a line on the king. What i consider to be passive would be something like a3, setting up a defense without any attempts at an offense.

Nice. I did miss that. So, 18...Kh8 first? That bishop isn't going anywhere so an in between move is a good idea.

Well, at this point I'm totally corrupted by the engine and incapable of providing my own thoughts!  But at any rate, you continue to evaluate the position as if White has a problem with a "trapped" bishop --"That bishop isn't going anywhere so an in between move is a good idea." --I think you've got it wrong -- in the immortal words of Rorschach, "I'm not trapped in here with you! YOU'RE TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!" 

I would have thought f6 would convince you : Black has problems of his own. You think you have time for "an in between" move? In between what? -- f6 is going to ventilate your kingside, the bishop on c6 is loose, the white bishops are hitting your back rank with rook support, and you think you have the initiative to go pursue the bishop a6?  Ok, that means you have an aggressive attitude! That's good!

 But uh, I don't think it's justified here.  I could type out the engine's line after Kh8 -- (I very much doubt I'd be able to find it on my own. ) but in summary the engine sees the position after Kh8 as +1.5 for White... the engine recommends black play Bb7 (+0.5) , exchanging light square bishops -- which should tell you how "trapped" it considers white's LSB.  

I honestly think you are a bit too fixated on your own plan here and missing White's game. It's the opposite fault of being passive. It's not giving your opponents position the scrutiny it deserves.

Passivity, imo, is not simply making purely defensive moves when none are required. That's _extreme_ passivity.

Passivity is the opposite of what you are doing in this analysis -- you have a plan "trap the bishop" and you'll be damned but you're gonna trap the f#%k!ng bishop somehow! You want to impose your idea on the chessbaord. I suspect some part of your chess soul is still grumbling, *screw the 3000 elo chess engine, the bishop is trapped I say!" 

The passive player reacts (overreacts) to his opponent's plans. He's always willing to abandon his own plans to react to his opponent. He doesn't impose his will, he doesn't struggle to impose his will. He takes his cues from his opponent.  

I think white's missed opportunity is actually on move 16 when white breaks up the kingside with f6, sacking the exchange after 16 ...Bxf6 with a strong attack.

I think i have the move order wrong. Playing 18...Qc7 stops white from playing Ba5. This way, black's bishop wouldn't have to move from its spot. ...Qc7 seems to be much better since it also frees up the other rook, while the ...b4 is a threat which can be played next move, and the d-file can be challenged.

Trapping that bishop, even if it isn't captured immediately puts it out of commission. Black's LSB on the other hand, remains active while doing guard duty. If black can gain an advantage, then why not go for it? f6 won't be played as long as that bishop remains there. ...Qc7 helps that idea. For white, why leave it there to do nothing? Shouldn't white attempt to keep it active and put it on a better square?

No, you suspect wrong. As i said, i analysed the line. My mistake was not looking at it again after you mentioned the engine recommended Ba5. Besides, you pointed out exactly what was wrong, and i accepted it, didn't i? Do you not believe the LSB is a legitimate target? It's hanging there out of place, and if it can be kept from getting back into the game, it seems like a reasonable plan. The only problem is, can it be executed. Other than challenging the d-file, are there any other targets for black? Black's LSB is aimed at g2, but white's queen is defending. No other pieces can get in on the action without going through the d-file. White has the same problem, so that's why i agree Rad1 is a good move. 

Also, as i've been pointing out a4 needs to be played. Originally, i had thought a4 only worked at that moment, but after further analysis i was wrong.

I really don't see white having much game, with the exception of f6 that i missed. White has problems swinging his rooks over to the kingside for an attack, so white needs to solve that problem first. In the meantime, the d-file will be challenged, so the idea of swinging it over is even further from my mind. You've even done the analysis yourself, and the engine busted your plan (as well as mine, though now i'm introducing ...Qc7 which i think is a better move.)

Based on your definition of passivity, how is Bird's opening passive? It challenges the e5 square immediately. My example was used because it was an easy and obvious move to display passivity. Sure, it was in the extreme, but it could be said in one line.

@sunshiny... Can't talk about the position much more... too many variations to consider in this text-heavy style we're using. 

Based on your definition of passivity, how is Bird's opening passive? It challenges the e5 square immediately.

I've only played the bird a few times (in a theme tournament)... my experience with it was that it put me in 'reactive' mode from the get go. I was constantly trying to stay one step ahead of being locked into some godawful bind. Maybe my attitude with it became passive/reactive because I was uncomfortable with it the whole time. Maybe it has active initiative-grabbing resources I'm not aware of or don't know how to use. 

Here's the mainline Bird -- 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 d4 

Dont worry about it, and ignore those that say youre not agressive enough.  Former world champion Tigran Petrosian was called the drawing master, and went 2 years without losing a game in the USSR championship.  His style was called "boring"

I to get called "passive", but when im tld by higher rated players that i stop everything they try, Ill stick with what works. 

Thanks.

I_Am_Second wrote:

VULPES_VULPES wrote:

I recall being accused more than once of being a passive chess player. Looking at my past games, I don't find that entirely true. 

However, I need other peoples opinions - both educated and speculative - to truly find out. 

What do you think?

Dont worry about it, and ignore those that say youre not agressive enough.  Former world champion Tigran Petrosian was called the drawing master, and went 2 years without losing a game in the USSR championship.  His style was called "boring"

I to get called "passive", but when im tld by higher rated players that i stop everything they try, Ill stick with what works. 

It's possible that the Bird opening has been tested and shown to be a weak opening. That doesn't mean it is a passive opening.