Benko was paid to give up his spot, if I recall correctly, while Lombardy wanted to play but still gave up his deserved chance to play for the World Championship. If the Soviets had done anything remotely similar it would have been called cheating.
Examples of Soviet cheating in FIDE competition: Petrosian-Korchnoi match, 1971
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Sep 11, 2015
0
#23
Fischer was the highest-rated American player and his results from 1970 to the Interzonal fully justified inclusion. It was an administrative matter, that did not involve any Soviet-style game manipulation.
I would say a much more egregious example would have been the switch of Smylov for Flohr, and the subsequent blocking of Najodorf for Fine, in the 1948 championship.
But that is fodder for another topic ... coming soon.
Sep 11, 2015
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#24
ddmeltzer8 wrote:
JamieDelarosa wrote:
ddmeltzer8 wrote:
Very interesting.A determining factor herehas to be that ptrosian was in fact a KGB-agent and had considerable weight to his word.At least to a certain point.Also,within the russian sports-commitee there was a great deal of intriege where the subjectiv over-ruled the objectiv.An disittions was not always fair.
The point of the post is a demonstration that competition within the Soviet Union, and among Soviet players, was oftimes pre-arranged. I would say that dates back to 1948 World Championship match-tournament, with the Botvinnik-Keres series.
Keres had been under threat of execution by the Soviets after having competed in Nazi-German chess tournament during WWII. (The USSR had unilaterally annexed Keres's home country Estonia in 1940. Keres was caught behind lines after the Nazi invasion of Estonia.)
I can well imagine the pressure Keres must have been under, knowing Botvinnik was the favorite son of Russia, and the Keres was being constantly watched.
Maybe I explained myself badly.Ur point is the same point I tried to make.I dont know a great deal of this,but I can imagin how difficult it must have been for Spassky,Korchnoi,Keres(as u mentioned)and others to be overstepped because of politics and face-factor.Another player how suffered under this regieme? was the brilliant Nezhmitdinov(who had a crushing score against Tal),who never got out of the "emire"(i believe)to play.This goes to show how badly politics affected the great game of ours.
I will certainly read all u have to write on the subject.
thanks.
Kholmov was another player not trusted to go play in the West.
"his results from 1970 to the Interzonal fully justified inclusion. It was an administrative matter, that did not involve any Soviet-style game manipulation"
"The USCF as the organizing body for Zone 5, had the ability to name its nominees for the Interzonal. As it was, they asked the top four from the US Chamionship and Zonal if one would give way to Fischer"
There was no reason to ask anyone to step aside if anyone could be nominated. Fischer refused to participate in the qualification, the players that qualified were asked to step aside or paid to do it, and give up their own (deserved) spot in the World Championship cycle. An administrative matter of course, and no manipulation :-)
Jaime, thank you for sharing. My experience there always Fischer haters, fabelhaft seem to belief everything Fischer did and accomplish was given to him. I personally never care for Korchnoi but I can understand his bitterness against the Soviet and interesting Korchnoi in his match in 1974 against Karpov, it seem they were very close in playing strength; I personally can't see Karpov beating Fischer in 1975.
Sep 11, 2015
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#27
fabelhaft wrote:
"his results from 1970 to the Interzonal fully justified inclusion. It was an administrative matter, that did not involve any Soviet-style game manipulation"
"The USCF as the organizing body for Zone 5, had the ability to name its nominees for the Interzonal. As it was, they asked the top four from the US Chamionship and Zonal if one would give way to Fischer"
There was no reason to ask anyone to step aside if anyone could be nominated. Fischer refused to participate in the qualification, the players that qualified were asked to step aside or paid to do it, and give up their own (deserved) spot in the World Championship cycle. An administrative matter of course, and no manipulation :-)
Here you go: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/fischers-participation-in-the-1970-palma-interzonal
Poroshenko-killer wrote:
yureesystem wrote:
.... personally can't see Karpov beating Fischer in 1975.
One of the reasons for refusal Fischer playing against Karpov in 1975 - is the fear of defeat. The odds were approximately 50% to 50%.
Karpov actually played Petrosian 5 games in 1975 , all games were drawn and from 1971-1981 they had met 13 times with Petrosian being +1 and never losing to Karpov and we all know how badly Fischer demolished Petrosian . Given these facts its ridiculous to think Karpov stood a 50% chance against Fischer . Karpov didnt manage his first win against Petrosian until 1982 in Tilburg , 11 years after Fischer spanked his behind . In 1975 Fischer would have beaten Karpov as badly as he did Petrosian in 71 .
"In 1975 Fischer would have beaten Karpov as badly as he did Petrosian in 71"
No reason to see that as a certainty. Few rank Petrosian among the ten greatest ever and he was past his peak in the 1970s, while Karpov usually is ranked far ahead of Petrosian and was a great player already in the middle of the 1970s. Not to mention that if Fischer himself had been so sure of beating Karpov with such a huge margin he would never have refused to play without Karpov being forced to win 10-8.
"You act as if this was Fischer's first odd request or extreme behavior"
It certainly wasn't, but beating Karpov as easily as Petrosian in 71 would mean 5-1 times two, i.e. 10-2 in wins, and even Spassky did considerably better than that against Fischer. Karpov was just different level than Spassky as their Candidates match showed, so I don't think it would have been all that easy or that Fischer was certain about it himself.
Sep 11, 2015
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#31
In 1992, Karpov was the ex-FIDE-titlist, the Soviet Union had fallen, and Korchnoi had been in the West for well over a decade. What did Karpov have to gain by making up stories?
fabelhaft wrote:
"In 1975 Fischer would have beaten Karpov as badly as he did Petrosian in 71"
No reason to see that as a certainty. Few rank Petrosian among the ten greatest ever and he was past his peak in the 1970s, while Karpov usually is ranked far ahead of Petrosian and was a great player already in the middle of the 1970s. Not to mention that if Fischer himself had been so sure of beating Karpov with such a huge margin he would never have refused to play without Karpov being forced to win 10-8.
This argument seems to strengthen the position that Fischer would have beaten Karpov. Because logic suggests that if Karpov was unable to defeat a past his prime Petrosian until 1982, then Fischer who demolished Petrosian before he was past his prime would have emerged victorious in 1975. Just saying..
can anyone tell me how Fisher managed to play on his first word championship. was it cheat? Don't call strategy to win the championship cheating.
Sep 11, 2015
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#34
Why is everyone putting Petrosian down? HE WAS the world champion for most of the 60's. Can anyone here do better?
No offense meant to Iron Tigran, i was just using him as a common opponent of Fischer and Karpov, that's all
There were already claims of Petrosian being past his prime when he played Fischer in 71 , however this past his prime GM has a lifetime equal record against both Karpov and Kasparov so , imo , its a huge mistake to underestimate Petrosian even after he was ( supposedly ) " past his prime . What we do know for fact is that Fischer gave him the worst beating of his career and that later neither Kasparov nor Karpov seemed at all superior to Petrosian . The Spassky/Karpov match is strange and can only be explained by the possibility that Spassky was ordered to lose to the new " chosen one " of the USSR . This is certainly not an unreasonable suspicion given their extremely dubious " track record " .
Just to be clear, I wasnt personally calling Petrosian past his prime, i was just quoting fabelhaft...or misquoting, because his words were past his peak
ClemsonTiger wrote:
Just to be clear, I wasnt personally calling Petrosian past his prime, i was just quoting fabelhaft...or misquoting, because his words were past his peak
I know and I was referring to his reference but many have said Petrosian was past his best chess in the 70s and that may be true but even so , he was still a formidable force , particularly in match play where his style of play wasnt so much a hindrance as it was for tournies .
Sep 11, 2015
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#39
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
How did Fischer get that spot in the Interzonal he refused to participate in the qualification for, by the way? Wasn't pressure put on all the players that were ahead of Fischer to decline the spot so he would get it instead of them? Imagine Botvinnik refusing to qualify for a cycle, a bunch of Soviet players that were qualified giving up their spot so he could get it, and this being the reason Botvinnik could win the title. The Fischer nuts would call it the worst type of cheating in the history of chess :-)
No. The USCF as the organizing body for Zone 5, had the ability to name its nominees for the Interzonal.
As it was, they asked the top four from the US Championship and Zonal if one would give way to Fischer. It was all above board.
If you wish, you may start a topic about Fischer's entry into the Interzonal. It is off-topic here.