f4 is best? Really?

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Avatar of Numquam
drmrboss schreef:
PawnstormPossie wrote:
DONTcrackMEup wrote:

What I am trying to figure out is how did the OP get it to change to depth 10? It only shows 16 which corresponds to 5 seconds. If you want a computer to give an accurate readout, shouldn't you wait more than 5 seconds?

 

 

OP said 10 was the default depth not using self analysis.

My research (toying around) has found depth of 20 to be inadequate in many cases. I've also found 30 to be unreliable in many positions. 36-38 seems to be pretty good for the majority of positions, while 40+ can be even better.

A problem I've come across with 40+ is the engines sometimes find very exact play (positioning) required by both sides for several moves. This can also take hours to perform.

And of course, by the time I'm close to making any type of elementary conclusions, the engine gets revised and my previous work is now trash. I started on SF8, now on SF10.

You should be able to hit 40+ depth within 10 seconds in most positions in  4 cores desktop. 

 

 

This is a screenshot from OP position, where my stockfish hit depth 47 within 5 seconds. Of course depth is unreliable indicator of SF strenght. If you dont hit depth 40+ within 10 seconds in most positions, your configuration is wrong.

 

My system is 2 years old mid range i5-7400, $250 ,4 cores cpu.

 

In general , if you need serious analysis, just do about 3 mins per position, that hit 1 billion nodes per position. (hit 3400+ strenght, in comparison 0 elo in random play) 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

Avatar of drmrboss
DONTcrackMEup wrote:

"You don't need to use chess.com's analysis. Stockfish is free."

 

Chess.com's analysis is free too. Not sure your point.

The point is web assembly stockfish (java script script ) is significantly slow, 60% of original speed at max.

But in chess.com, i guess they get only 15% of original speed of stockfish. ( i guess the speed is approx 800knps, where I get 4.5 Mnps in my  4- cores. Or 6 times slower, which is massive

This is a screenshot where I get the best depth 28 in  10 seconds. ( I use single PV)

Avatar of drmrboss

And also depth 40 is too vague. Depth 40 in middle game, opening, and endgame phase, and type of branching positions are factors influencing the depth of stockfish.  In this position, my stockfish hit depth 50 in 2 seconds,

Avatar of drmrboss
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
PawnstormPossie wrote:
DONTcrackMEup wrote:

What I am trying to figure out is how did the OP get it to change to depth 10? It only shows 16 which corresponds to 5 seconds. If you want a computer to give an accurate readout, shouldn't you wait more than 5 seconds?

 

 

OP said 10 was the default depth not using self analysis.

My research (toying around) has found depth of 20 to be inadequate in many cases. I've also found 30 to be unreliable in many positions. 36-38 seems to be pretty good for the majority of positions, while 40+ can be even better.

A problem I've come across with 40+ is the engines sometimes find very exact play (positioning) required by both sides for several moves. This can also take hours to perform.

And of course, by the time I'm close to making any type of elementary conclusions, the engine gets revised and my previous work is now trash. I started on SF8, now on SF10.

You should be able to hit 40+ depth within 10 seconds in most positions in  4 cores desktop. 

 

 

This is a screenshot from OP position, where my stockfish hit depth 47 within 5 seconds. Of course depth is unreliable indicator of SF strenght. If you dont hit depth 40+ within 10 seconds in most positions, your configuration is wrong.

 

My system is 2 years old mid range i5-7400, $250 ,4 cores cpu.

 

In general , if you need serious analysis, just do about 3 mins per position, that hit 1 billion nodes per position. (hit 3400+ strenght, in comparison 0 elo in random play) 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

Avatar of Numquam
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:

 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

When we are talking about depth, we don't mean the depth of a single variation, but the depth of the tree which is 24 here. chess.com also shows this number as depth.

Avatar of drmrboss
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:

 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

When we are talking about depth, we don't mean the depth of a single variation, but the depth of the tree which is 24 here. chess.com also shows this number as depth.

I am pretty sure that the depth means=47, (current variation of the node is additional info that Arena GUI display).

You should ask a programmer first, before telling your assumption like "everything you think is right".

It is very unlikely that chess.com use the wrong info.

Avatar of Numquam
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:

 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

When we are talking about depth, we don't mean the depth of a single variation, but the depth of the tree which is 24 here. chess.com also shows this number as depth.

I am pretty sure that the depth means=47, (current variation of the node is additional info that Arena GUI display).

You should ask a programmer first, before telling your assumption.

It is very unlikely that chess.com use the wrong info.

You only have to look at the numbers to know you are wrong. You simply can't reach depth 47 with many pieces on the board that fast on a normal computer.

Avatar of drmrboss
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:

 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

When we are talking about depth, we don't mean the depth of a single variation, but the depth of the tree which is 24 here. chess.com also shows this number as depth.

I am pretty sure that the depth means=47, (current variation of the node is additional info that Arena GUI display).

You should ask a programmer first, before telling your assumption.

It is very unlikely that chess.com use the wrong info.

You only have to look at the numbers to know you are wrong. You simply can't reach depth 47 with many pieces on the board that fast on a normal computer.

Then it is your another assumption. I wont argue again second assumption (ask stockfish programmers in fishcooking)

This is the group of stockfish programmers.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?nomobile=true#!forum/fishcooking

And again, if chess.com display the current tree as depth, then the depth would be back and forth like, depth 2, depth 22, depth 31, depth 3,  in chaos numbers in every second, cos it is the way how stockfish search, where she has the priority/heuristic which tree she need to search first.

In chess.com depth, it is constant and display the highest depth.(so it should be the highest depth SF reached)

Avatar of Numquam
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:
drmrboss schreef:
Numquam wrote:

 

 

No your depth is somewhere between 20-30. i can't read it

24/47 at 5 seconds, is the last position SF searched before I stop it. (look at the top evaluation ,there are three evluation tree at 5 seconds) 

The first letter 24 means, stockfish is currently searching the brach/tree at depth 24. 

47 means the depth stockfish already reached in his principal variation. 

So the depth is 47.  

When we are talking about depth, we don't mean the depth of a single variation, but the depth of the tree which is 24 here. chess.com also shows this number as depth.

I am pretty sure that the depth means=47, (current variation of the node is additional info that Arena GUI display).

You should ask a programmer first, before telling your assumption.

It is very unlikely that chess.com use the wrong info.

You only have to look at the numbers to know you are wrong. You simply can't reach depth 47 with many pieces on the board that fast on a normal computer.

Then it is your another assumption. I wont argue again second assumption (ask stockfish programmers in fishcooking)

This is the group of stockfish programmers.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?nomobile=true#!forum/fishcooking

And again, if chess.com display the current tree as depth, then the depth would be back and forth like, depth 2, depth 22, depth 31, depth 3,  in chaos numbers in every second, cos it is the way how stockfish search, where she has the priority/heuristic which tree she need to search first.

In chess.com depth, it is constant and display the highest depth.(so it should be the highest depth SF reached)

I know what a tree is. If you add more branches, that does not change the depths of the existing nodes. So there is no reason why the depth would go down.

Also the depth which was that number 24 in arena doesn't go down in arena either. 

Avatar of IpswichMatt

I'm not convinced that this is due to the search depth.

If you look at the screenshot the OP first produced, below where it says that best move is 17 f4, it gives the best replies for Black, which are:

17...Qxg2 (mate)

17...Qxf4 (-1.87)

17...Qg4 (-1.75)

So the engine is seeing the mate in 1, but the analysis assumes that the 3rd best response 17...Qg4 will be played - or something. So it looks like it's a bug in the code that interprets what the engine is saying, not in the engine itself.

That said, it works fine for me in my browser

Avatar of PkPum
IpswichMatt wrote:

I'm not convinced that this is due to the search depth.

If you look at the screenshot the OP first produced, below where it says that best move is 17 f4, it gives the best replies for Black, which are:

17...Qxg2 (mate)

17...Qxf4 (-1.87)

17...Qg4 (-1.75)

So the engine is seeing the mate in 1, but the analysis assumes that the 3rd best response 17...Qg4 will be played - or something. So it looks like it's a bug in the code that interprets what the engine is saying, not in the engine itself.

That said, it works fine for me in my browser

Yes, that is odd, that the mate is seen as a possibility, but it marked something else as "best." Thanks drmrboss for posting your stockfish analysis. I've downloaded stockfish but never actually used it yet. Your screenshot gives me a better idea of what's going on in terms of "depth" and what the computer is calculating. (that f4 move is shown as one of the early considerations, 3 times, with the queen just moving out of the attack as the response, instead of going for the checkmate!) I wonder if there's a rhyme or reason as to which piece moves are considered first? In any case, this discussion on the computer analysis and depth has been enlightening as it's turned out to involve more than I initially assumed. Thanks all!

Avatar of chessmastered2006

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