FACT: You can't improve at chess

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Avatar of MitchKupietz
JeffGreen333 wrote:
triggerlips wrote:

You can sharpen yourself up with tactics puzzles etc, but OP is basically correct. First few years playing massive improvement, but once you hit your natural level it very difficult to go much further.   

   Many older players can argue that they are higher rated than they were 20 years ago, but ho much of that is due to rating inflation rather than actual improvement?

No, I am MUCH better than I was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago.  Sometimes, you have the talent to be a 2000 level player, but there are a few holes in your knowledge that cause you to lose games.  That was the case with me.   After I studied the "right things", everything started to click and I filled in those holes and vaulted from 1600 to around 1900, over the past 5-10 years (in my late 40's/early 50's no less).   It takes dedication, lots of study and some inborn talent.   Not everyone can continue to improve at my age though.  I have managed to keep my mind sharp by playing lots of strategy games, taking quizzes, doing puzzles, etc.   I may be a rare exception to the age rule (most people peak mentally at around age 40).  I will admit that I am not a fast player.  I excel at longer games, where I can think deeply.   My blitz rating is only around 1450, but my daily rating is 1820 and rising.  

Jeff Green, you are the f***ing man bro.

Avatar of JackRoach
MitchKupietz wrote:
JeffGreen333 wrote:
triggerlips wrote:

You can sharpen yourself up with tactics puzzles etc, but OP is basically correct. First few years playing massive improvement, but once you hit your natural level it very difficult to go much further.   

   Many older players can argue that they are higher rated than they were 20 years ago, but ho much of that is due to rating inflation rather than actual improvement?

No, I am MUCH better than I was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago.  Sometimes, you have the talent to be a 2000 level player, but there are a few holes in your knowledge that cause you to lose games.  That was the case with me.   After I studied the "right things", everything started to click and I filled in those holes and vaulted from 1600 to around 1900, over the past 5-10 years (in my late 40's/early 50's no less).   It takes dedication, lots of study and some inborn talent.   Not everyone can continue to improve at my age though.  I have managed to keep my mind sharp by playing lots of strategy games, taking quizzes, doing puzzles, etc.   I may be a rare exception to the age rule (most people peak mentally at around age 40).  I will admit that I am not a fast player.  I excel at longer games, where I can think deeply.   My blitz rating is only around 1450, but my daily rating is 1820 and rising.  

Jeff Green, you are the f***ing man bro.

That was unnecessarily unnecessary to say. And not really a good thing to say either.

Avatar of Rancid-Knight

I've consistently improved improved over time, albeit very slowly. Over life obligations always get in the way of quick improvement.

Avatar of Tails204
psylowade wrote:

This is going to be a very controversial post - but I strongly believe that once someone has a basic understanding of the game (knowing all the opening variations, basic strategies etc..) it's almost impossible to improve based on practice. I think we all have a natural ability that will dictate our skill level. It's why we see little kids rated as grandmasters but players who have put 20+ years in still struggle at 1500

This is why you see that majority of players, who have played for over 5 years ALWAYS hover around the same rating. You would think after 5 years of consistent practice the rating would gradually increase? 

Every single graph I've looked at at long term players is within 200 rating points. I.e. if someone is rated 1900 they will have hovered between 1800-2000 for their entire careers. It makes me believe chess is based on genetic intelligence you're born with and nothing more. Yes you can sharpen your skill but you're not going to go from struggling at 1000 to 2500 in 10 years.

I know the majority of you are thinking "what an idiot of course you can improve" - Show me a graph of a player who has consistently improved over time. It doesn't exist. It's usually rapid increase or decrease at the beginning then just hovering around a rating forever. Give me a player profile graph and show me slow, long term improvement

Absolutely true, but people don't want to understand it.

When I started playing chess, my rating was already 1700. And let's have a look at some players, who learn this game their whole life, and their rating is still 1200 or something like that.

Avatar of JackRoach
Tails204 wrote:
psylowade wrote:

This is going to be a very controversial post - but I strongly believe that once someone has a basic understanding of the game (knowing all the opening variations, basic strategies etc..) it's almost impossible to improve based on practice. I think we all have a natural ability that will dictate our skill level. It's why we see little kids rated as grandmasters but players who have put 20+ years in still struggle at 1500

This is why you see that majority of players, who have played for over 5 years ALWAYS hover around the same rating. You would think after 5 years of consistent practice the rating would gradually increase? 

Every single graph I've looked at at long term players is within 200 rating points. I.e. if someone is rated 1900 they will have hovered between 1800-2000 for their entire careers. It makes me believe chess is based on genetic intelligence you're born with and nothing more. Yes you can sharpen your skill but you're not going to go from struggling at 1000 to 2500 in 10 years.

I know the majority of you are thinking "what an idiot of course you can improve" - Show me a graph of a player who has consistently improved over time. It doesn't exist. It's usually rapid increase or decrease at the beginning then just hovering around a rating forever. Give me a player profile graph and show me slow, long term improvement

Absolutely true, but people don't want to understand it.

When I started playing chess, my rating was already 1700. And let's have a look at some players, who learn this game their whole life, and their rating is still 1200 or something like that.

How were you 1700 when you started playing chess?

Do you mean started going on chess.com?

Avatar of play4fun64

For older players, many have declined from their peak. I think it's still possible to play near their peak if they study (review) regularly. And put more focus to chess. What I mean is when they play, avoid distraction.

Avatar of JackRoach
LazyDog24 wrote:
JackRoach wrote:
Tails204 wrote:
psylowade wrote:

This is going to be a very controversial post - but I strongly believe that once someone has a basic understanding of the game (knowing all the opening variations, basic strategies etc..) it's almost impossible to improve based on practice. I think we all have a natural ability that will dictate our skill level. It's why we see little kids rated as grandmasters but players who have put 20+ years in still struggle at 1500

This is why you see that majority of players, who have played for over 5 years ALWAYS hover around the same rating. You would think after 5 years of consistent practice the rating would gradually increase? 

Every single graph I've looked at at long term players is within 200 rating points. I.e. if someone is rated 1900 they will have hovered between 1800-2000 for their entire careers. It makes me believe chess is based on genetic intelligence you're born with and nothing more. Yes you can sharpen your skill but you're not going to go from struggling at 1000 to 2500 in 10 years.

I know the majority of you are thinking "what an idiot of course you can improve" - Show me a graph of a player who has consistently improved over time. It doesn't exist. It's usually rapid increase or decrease at the beginning then just hovering around a rating forever. Give me a player profile graph and show me slow, long term improvement

Absolutely true, but people don't want to understand it.

When I started playing chess, my rating was already 1700. And let's have a look at some players, who learn this game their whole life, and their rating is still 1200 or something like that.

How were you 1700 when you started playing chess?

Do you mean started going on chess.com?

Let's make this straight. Chess isn't based on intelligence, it is about the effort you put in. Tell me how IQ has anything to do with learning chess stuff! In school if 2 kids are taught a history lesson, kid A is a genius, kid B is average. Their IQ has nothing to do with their knowledge of that lesson, it is the effort of listening to the teacher. It is the same with chess, it is about the effort you put into training and learning chess things. Your first point was that some people become high rated and a young age while some are stuck. That is because those young people got exposed to a ton of chess understanding at a very young age. You also used the point others are stuck. Well ask those people who are stuck this: Do you have a chess coach? Do you expose your self to a lot of chess understanding? Do you train? Do you review your games? Chances are most will say no to most of those questions. Also you said you started at a high rating, that is clearly impossible. Lets turn the tables around and give me one graph when someone started at a high rating. Also your final point is you need a graph. While here's one but if you look enough there will probably be 30.  What I am trying to say is that this is an elitist and dumb claim. This graph shows a steady walk from 1250 to 2000 over 5 years

Were you directing that at me?

Avatar of JackRoach
LazyDog24 wrote:

No, at Tails204

Well my quote was most recent.

So you had me confused lol

Avatar of hoodoothere

Original post makes no sense, obviously wrong, almost everybody improves!

Avatar of Tails204

I didn't say that chess is related to IQ.
It's based only on innate abilities, for memorizing positions, and other things like that.

Of course, if you want, you can get better in any way, although innate abilities play a huge role

Avatar of Ziryab

@LazyDog24 Nice graph!

Avatar of dominusdone
JackRoach wrote:

You are correct, improving is impossible.

But deproving, that's easy.

huh improving is impossible if that werent true then you wouldnt be able to learn an opening

Avatar of BM_BlunderMaster90

Look at my graphs for 100% confirmation that improving is possible. I've basically been improving constantly for 2 years now even knowing all the basic chess strategy.

Avatar of gerard02

Chess involves many long hours of study. Children do well, because they have lots of time to commit to the game. We as adults have less time. But, you can improve, if you manage your time and enter tournaments timely. It’s about proper study techniques, time and how much you play. Balance will improve your game.

Avatar of GrandioseStrategy

Look at Christopher Yoo's (USA) and Bai Adelard's (TAI) graph they keep on improving as they train harder and harder. If one stop or if one train it wrong improvement stagnates.

Avatar of TreTreSD

I think you are exactly right in your theory. Any of us could practice to be a major league pitcher from childhood for 25 years and never come close. There HAS to be a natural knack. 

Avatar of hanweihehai

it's about study,you can't learn chess by yourself you need go to school if you want to improve 

Avatar of hanweihehai

the learning is not real learning it's just really relax entertaining did you wirite something on a paper?or check the ai what mistake you make ,and make your playing  like a system? most people don't learn chess seriouly but chess itself is very serious

Avatar of hanweihehai

and if anyone really want to improve chess then at least don't play speed chess ,speed chess really make no sense ,you don't know what you are doing ,the pro play fast chess just to emtertaiing people 

Avatar of BL4D3RUNN3R

My national highscore was two years ago after 30 years in business. It was 2188 DWZ, which is usually a bit lower than the corresponding Elo. I have become CM after 23 years btw.