How do I defend the arguement that chess is a sport?

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Avatar of DrSpudnik

TL/DR

Avatar of AlCzervik
Ziryab wrote:
 

This post has not been addressed in any detail by the side arguing the negative.

because every point in the post is either irrelevant (example below) or has already been debunked.

this "debate" has become redundant with both sides just repeating everything. nobody is changing anyone's mind here.

then there are the arguments that are not arguments at all. in the post you cite, z, one part states "chess tournaments are governed by strict rules and regulations". using this flawed logic, driving to work is a sport.

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You don't!

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AlCzervik wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
 

This post has not been addressed in any detail by the side arguing the negative.

because every point in the post is either irrelevant (example below) or has already been debunked.

this "debate" has become redundant with both sides just repeating everything. nobody is changing anyone's mind here.

then there are the arguments that are not arguments at all. in the post you cite, z, one part states "chess tournaments are governed by strict rules and regulations". using this flawed logic, driving to work is a sport.

I was going to say almost the same thing. Every point has been gone over so many times, there isn't a good reason to repeat them again. Most of what Jared brought up are just good reason why chess is NOT a sport.

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llama_l wrote:

There are some competitions that are commonly called "sport" that don't require physical exertion. Shooting is a good example, since you try to minimize movement, and even keep breathing and heart rate calm. Poker is also a good example for the same reason (many top pros seem to do their best imitation of being comatose). A more modern example of sport without physical exertion are esports.

Now... clearly, some people's personal concept of sport requires physical training, sweating, etc. I'm not denying that. Whether that's the definition commonly used by society is an interesting question though.

If there is no physical exertion in shooting how does the gun get aimed and the trigger get pulled? Or do those things not matter in the results of a shooting competiton.

Avatar of Ziryab
llama_l wrote:
Jared wrote:

. . .

The mental demands, competitive nature, and skill level required to succeed in chess are comparable to those of other sports, making it a legitimate and respected athletic pursuit.

I'd call chess a sport, but I wouldn't call it athletic.

I agree

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lfPatriotGames wrote:
llama_l wrote:

There are some competitions that are commonly called "sport" that don't require physical exertion. Shooting is a good example, since you try to minimize movement, and even keep breathing and heart rate calm. Poker is also a good example for the same reason (many top pros seem to do their best imitation of being comatose). A more modern example of sport without physical exertion are esports.

Now... clearly, some people's personal concept of sport requires physical training, sweating, etc. I'm not denying that. Whether that's the definition commonly used by society is an interesting question though.

If there is no physical exertion in shooting how does the gun get aimed and the trigger get pulled? Or do those things not matter in the results of a shooting competiton.

In competitive shooting, at least some forms, the gun is supported so well that the physical acts are mostly carefully preventing the human action of pulling the trigger from affecting anything. 

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chess is a sporthappy.png even video games r sport (e-sport) why can't chess be? and chess is boardgames happy.png

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
llama_l wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
llama_l wrote:

There are some competitions that are commonly called "sport" that don't require physical exertion. Shooting is a good example, since you try to minimize movement, and even keep breathing and heart rate calm. Poker is also a good example for the same reason (many top pros seem to do their best imitation of being comatose). A more modern example of sport without physical exertion are esports.

Now... clearly, some people's personal concept of sport requires physical training, sweating, etc. I'm not denying that. Whether that's the definition commonly used by society is an interesting question though.

If there is no physical exertion in shooting how does the gun get aimed and the trigger get pulled? Or do those things not matter in the results of a shooting competiton.

That's a very lazy post, since it invites me to say moving pieces requires a similar amount of movement.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by lazy. By lazy do you mean saying something like moving chess pieces requires a similar amount of movement as shooting? Or do you mean lazy like you personally moving the chess pieces results in the outcome of the game. Meaning nobody (not a proxy, not a chess server, nobody) is allowed to move the pieces for you. When you go shooting, is someone else allowed to shoot the gun for you, and then you get credited for the result?

How much physical effort, how much "movement" does Noland Arbaugh exert when he plays chess? Is he playing a sport?

Avatar of doggo-doggo-doggo

Chess, often debated as a sport, transcends conventional physical activity yet embodies the essence of competitive athletics through mental prowess, strategic acumen, and rigorous training. While some may argue that the absence of physical exertion disqualifies chess from being labeled a sport, a deeper examination reveals that chess meets and often exceeds the criteria defining a sport.

At its core, sport involves competitive engagement that demands skill, strategy, and training. Chess embodies these elements profoundly. Players dedicate countless hours honing their cognitive abilities, studying past games, and refining their strategic thinking. The mental stamina required to compete in high-level chess tournaments rivals that of any physical endeavor. Grandmasters, the pinnacle of chess excellence, are athletes of the mind, pushing the boundaries of human cognitive performance.

Moreover, chess tournaments adhere to strict regulations and codes of conduct, similar to traditional sports. Players must adhere to time controls, maintain decorum, and compete under pressure, all while adhering to a set of rules enforced by arbiters. The competitive environment fosters intense focus, resilience in the face of adversity, and the ability to perform under stress—qualities synonymous with athletic competition.

Chess also mirrors the structure of traditional sports in its organizational framework. It has international governing bodies like FIDE (Fédération Internationale des Échecs) that oversee tournaments, establish rankings, and enforce standards of play. Professional players earn sponsorships, endorsements, and compete for substantial prize money, paralleling the economic ecosystem of mainstream sports.

Furthermore, the physical effects of competitive chess cannot be overlooked. While not strenuous in the traditional sense, the mental exertion and physiological responses during intense chess matches—increased heart rate, perspiration, and heightened sensory awareness—mimic those experienced in physical sports. Studies have shown that competitive chess players experience similar levels of adrenaline and cortisol as athletes in physically demanding sports, indicating a profound physiological response to the demands of the game.

Beyond its competitive aspects, chess fosters qualities essential in sport—discipline, dedication, and resilience. Players must endure defeats, learn from mistakes, and continually evolve their strategies to remain competitive. The mental discipline required to maintain peak performance over the course of long tournaments is akin to the physical endurance demanded by endurance sports.

In conclusion, while chess may not involve physical prowess in the traditional sense, its demands on cognitive abilities, competitive spirit, and adherence to rigorous standards qualify it as a sport. Chess challenges the mind with the same intensity and rigor that physical sports demand of the body. It embodies the essence of competition, requiring skill, strategy, and endurance to succeed at the highest levels. Thus, chess stands as a testament to the diversity of sports, illustrating that athleticism transcends mere physicality and encompasses the boundless capabilities of the human mind.

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chat gpt

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Move the chess clock 500m away from the chess board.

Avatar of Optimissed
Secretary_bird123 wrote:

I have classmates who disagree about this... What are the best arguments you guys have?

There aren't any.

Avatar of Ziryab
Optimissed wrote:
Secretary_bird123 wrote:

I have classmates who disagree about this... What are the best arguments you guys have?

There aren't any.

At its core, sport involves competitive engagement that demands skill, strategy, and training. Chess embodies these elements profoundly. Players dedicate countless hours honing their cognitive abilities, studying past games, and refining their strategic thinking. The mental stamina required to compete in high-level chess tournaments rivals that of any physical endeavor. Grandmasters, the pinnacle of chess excellence, are athletes of the mind, pushing the boundaries of human cognitive performance.

Avatar of Ziryab
MadChessWarriorKid wrote:

chat gpt

It is a sad commentary on posters here when a statistics-based writing app manages to construct the most intelligent contribution to a thread with nearly 700 posts.

Avatar of BigChessplayer665
Ziryab wrote:
MadChessWarriorKid wrote:

chat gpt

It is a sad commentary on posters here when a statistics-based writing app manages to construct the most intelligent contribution to a thread with nearly 700 posts.

It's an AI and unfortunately most humans suck at english it isn't that the ai constructs the most intelligent contribution it's that it sounds way smarter than it actually is I have a feeling it's due to correct grammar and using big words

Avatar of Ziryab
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
MadChessWarriorKid wrote:

chat gpt

It is a sad commentary on posters here when a statistics-based writing app manages to construct the most intelligent contribution to a thread with nearly 700 posts.

It's an AI and unfortunately most humans suck at english it isn't that the ai constructs the most intelligent contribution it's that it sounds way smarter than it actually is I have a feeling it's due to correct grammar and using big words

I’ve had long arguments with ChatGPT, but these two sentences are the clearest expression I’ve seen of what I’ve been arguing in these threads for nearly ten years.

“At its core, sport involves competitive engagement that demands skill, strategy, and training. Chess embodies these elements profoundly.”

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
llama_l wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
llama_l wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
llama_l wrote:

There are some competitions that are commonly called "sport" that don't require physical exertion. Shooting is a good example, since you try to minimize movement, and even keep breathing and heart rate calm. Poker is also a good example for the same reason (many top pros seem to do their best imitation of being comatose). A more modern example of sport without physical exertion are esports.

Now... clearly, some people's personal concept of sport requires physical training, sweating, etc. I'm not denying that. Whether that's the definition commonly used by society is an interesting question though.

If there is no physical exertion in shooting how does the gun get aimed and the trigger get pulled? Or do those things not matter in the results of a shooting competiton.

That's a very lazy post, since it invites me to say moving pieces requires a similar amount of movement.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by lazy. By lazy do you mean saying something like moving chess pieces requires a similar amount of movement as shooting? Or do you mean lazy like you personally moving the chess pieces results in the outcome of the game. Meaning nobody (not a proxy, not a chess server, nobody) is allowed to move the pieces for you. When you go shooting, is someone else allowed to shoot the gun for you, and then you get credited for the result?

How much physical effort, how much "movement" does Noland Arbaugh exert when he plays chess? Is he playing a sport?

Lazy as in you're not thinking about your argument in the context of ideas, you're just saying the first thing you think of.

For example, instead of mentioning Noland Arbaugh it would have been better to make the same argument on a conceptual level e.g. that chess can be played in the mind, a player against themselves, without a board or pieces. Some even report dreaming solutions to tactical puzzles (for example) so it's conceivable someone might play chess in their sleep.

But that argument would also be a bit careless since you'd be tacitly admitting that chess when played OTB or online is a sport while dreaming chess and solitaire blindfold chess are not. Another argument against this idea is that shooting can also be done in a purely abstract way. With physics 101 equations (such as the kinematic equations) and some elementary trig, you can solve for quantities such as the angle and velocity required for a bullet to hit a target. That is, coming up with examples of when chess is not a sport is not a blank check to claim all forms of chess are not a sport.

Ah, that clears things up a bit. Because the idea that chess can be played ONLY in the minds of the players has been brought up. Many times. I'm not sure it would be lazy to bring it up again, or it was lazy the first 20 times. Or maybe it would be lazy to suggest that the definition of sport precludes activities conducted SOLELY in people minds. Such as dreaming.

Or maybe it would be lazy to suggest some forms of chess are sports and others aren't. I, as well as many others, have said things like speed chess could certainly be considered sports, since they rely so heavily on the physical aspect. Speed, co-ordination, etc.

Having covered all those tihngs so many times before, maybe it's NOT lazy to concentrate just on what most people are talking about, normal regular play. Which is what Noland Arbaugh plays. Is that a sport?

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llama_l wrote:

So, again, if you want to claim chess is a sport (or not a sport) then first you establish criteria (ideally elements that are uniquely common among all sports) and then you argue for why chess does or doesn't meet that standard. What you DON'T do is come up with single examples, such as Karpov losing weight, or blind person having someone move pieces for them.

As others have mentioned, this has already been done. Many, many times. The elements of sports that are uniquely common are the participants themselves most perform the tasks the sport requires. Every single sport shares this unique requirement. From curling to weightlifting. From target shooting to swimming. From darts to boxing. You name it, the participant must do it.

Chess, however, has no such requirement. Most people do it of course because it's the most convenient. But it's not REQUIRED. If it were required, how would someone like Noland Arbaugh play competitive chess?

Avatar of lfPatriotGames
Ziryab wrote:
BigChessplayer665 wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
MadChessWarriorKid wrote:

chat gpt

It is a sad commentary on posters here when a statistics-based writing app manages to construct the most intelligent contribution to a thread with nearly 700 posts.

It's an AI and unfortunately most humans suck at english it isn't that the ai constructs the most intelligent contribution it's that it sounds way smarter than it actually is I have a feeling it's due to correct grammar and using big words

I’ve had long arguments with ChatGPT, but these two sentences are the clearest expression I’ve seen of what I’ve been arguing in these threads for nearly ten years.

“At its core, sport involves competitive engagement that demands skill, strategy, and training. Chess embodies these elements profoundly.”

Except for one thing. Chess is not a competitive physical engagement. It can demand skill, strategy and training though.

Do you think that clear expression of what a sport is meant to include things like making dinner, driving to work, arguing for a raise or mowing the lawn?