Is chess a game of logic?

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Avatar of Labourius

Yes, I know there is a myth that chess is a very logical game. But chess is full of spontaneous decisions and determination. With chess you cannot even practice logical thinking. Many people also believe that chess and mathematics are closely connected. But we chess players are not necessarily good at maths.

 

But surely you cannot reach the top completely without logical skills?

 

Chess becomes a logical game when you approach the endgame. In the middlegame it is a game of intuition, of creativity and passion. I sometime love logical chess, the geometry of certain games. But I am not a logically structured chess player.

 

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Avatar of x-5058622868

Intuition, creativity, and passion are not mutually exclusive from logic.

Avatar of pdve
Sunshiny wrote:

Intuition, creativity, and passion are not mutually exclusive from logic.

Agreed

Avatar of ur-booksy

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

Avatar of waffllemaster
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

Avatar of waffllemaster

The ability chess requires most is the ability to play chess.  Logic, intuition, creativity, etc are just guises we wrap around moves after the game.  What makes a player stronger is pattern recognition, and the more learned positions the better.

I'd bet that a 1500 player uses much more logic and does much more calculation during a game than a grandmaster.  Logic, intuition, calculation, creativity, etc are useful when you don't know what to do.  I'd say they amount to guesses.  Grandmasters don't need to guess (nearly as often anyway), they just play chess and that's why they win.

Avatar of ur-booksy
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

You clearly know nothing about computers or programming.

Avatar of ponz111

To me a game of chess has a lot to do with logical sequences.

 

I am not sure what is "intuition"?

Avatar of waffllemaster
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

You clearly know nothing about computers or programming.

I find it hard to believe you, but if programs don't merely calculate and follow the program then I'm interested.  Tell me how chess programs play chess.

Avatar of ur-booksy
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

You clearly know nothing about computers or programming.

I find it hard to believe you, but if programs don't merely calculate and follow the program then I'm interested.  Tell me how chess programs play chess.

That is exactly what they do.  Your problem is that you seem to think that programs aren't inherently logical.  They are nothing but logic.

Avatar of Doggy_Style

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intuition

Avatar of waffllemaster
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

You clearly know nothing about computers or programming.

I find it hard to believe you, but if programs don't merely calculate and follow the program then I'm interested.  Tell me how chess programs play chess.

That is exactly what they do.  Your problem is that you seem to think that programs aren't inherently logical.  They are nothing but logic.

Ok.  The structure, circuits, and programs are pure logic that's true.  Cause/effect, input/output... but that's not the kind of logic I meant.  But I suppose you're right in that literal sense.  Chess could be described as a game of pure logic.

Avatar of ur-booksy
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

If chess were about intuition, creativity or passion, then we would still be able to beat computers, because computers have none of those things.  Humans have to substitute intuition for logic in complex positions, because our inferior meat computing organs are unable to deduce them logically. 

If chess was about logic, then computers woudln't win a single game.  They just push 1s and 0s around in the way the programmer has decided.

You clearly know nothing about computers or programming.

I find it hard to believe you, but if programs don't merely calculate and follow the program then I'm interested.  Tell me how chess programs play chess.

That is exactly what they do.  Your problem is that you seem to think that programs aren't inherently logical.  They are nothing but logic.

Ok.  The structure, circuits, and programs are pure logic that's true.  Cause/effect, input/output... but that's not the kind of logic I meant.  But I suppose you're right in that literal sense.  Chess could be described as a game of pure logic.

What other kind of logic do you think there is? 

Avatar of waffllemaster
ur-booksy wrote:

What other kind of logic do you think there is? 

Maybe you'd call it too informal but I was thinking of how a person would reason through a problem.  In any case, I'll again admit you were right that computers play chess using logic... not human logic but actual logic lol :)

Avatar of ur-booksy
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

What other kind of logic do you think there is? 

Maybe you'd call it too informal but I was thinking of how a person would reason through a problem.  In any case, I'll again admit you were right that computers play chess using logic... not human logic but actual logic lol :)

How a person would reason through a problem is only logic if they do it logically.  Most people aren't very logical.

Avatar of TheGrobe
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

What other kind of logic do you think there is? 

Maybe you'd call it too informal but I was thinking of how a person would reason through a problem.  In any case, I'll again admit you were right that computers play chess using logic... not human logic but actual logic lol :)

How a person would reason through a problem is only logic if they do it logically.  Most people aren't very logical.

And some are tautological.

Avatar of ur-booksy
TheGrobe wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:
waffllemaster wrote:
ur-booksy wrote:

What other kind of logic do you think there is? 

Maybe you'd call it too informal but I was thinking of how a person would reason through a problem.  In any case, I'll again admit you were right that computers play chess using logic... not human logic but actual logic lol :)

How a person would reason through a problem is only logic if they do it logically.  Most people aren't very logical.

And some are tautological.

Some are, but that isn't.

Avatar of TheGrobe

Luck only enters the game in the absence of perfect logic.

Avatar of ur-booksy
FlintLockwood wrote:

Nobody has yet mentioned luck. There is a huge amount of luck involved due to all the possible options your opponent can play plus unpredictable human thinking ,you are immensely lucky if they play what you hoped for.

I suggest there is more luck involved in chess than poker due to there being less options in poker.

That luck comes from the thought processes of the people playing, not from the mechanics of chess itself.  Poker contains actual luck as part of the game, because you could be dealt a good or bad hand. 

Avatar of TheGrobe

It's the nature of perfect information games -- if played perfectly, luck does not factor.