Does it make sense that Carslen would need Niemann's permission to speak more openly about it?
Cease-and-Desist order.
Nakamura mentioned that he had already received one, from Niemann's legal rep.
a C-a-D does not prevent Magnus from providing proof. it really makes 0 sense to ask somebody for permission to out him as a cheater.
Sounds like Niemann gained a psychological advantage over Magnus. That would explain why he played below his usual skill.
To play the devil's advocate: if I used engine assistance against Carlsen, I would wreck him. And it would look, to others, as if Carlsen was playing "below his usual skill". Mistakes here. Blunders there. Getting worn down, move by move.
My moves, meanwhile, would look logical and effortless. Nothing special at all. Just methodical, precise, simplicity ...
Sounds like Niemann gained a psychological advantage over Magnus. That would explain why he played below his usual skill.
To play the devil's advocate: if I used engine assistance against Carlsen, I would wreck him. And it would look, to others, as if Carlsen was playing "below his usual skill". Mistakes here. Blunders there. Getting worn down, move by move.
My moves, meanwhile, would look logical and effortless. Nothing special at all. Just methodical, precise, simplicity ...
have you analyzed their game?
Sure does not look like Stockfish crushing the WC, but rather the WC having an off day and the GM doing his job.
I disagree, based on an analysis aimed at detecting hints of cheating. I would say the play is more consistent with cheating than being honest. If he cheated there was an attempt not to make it obvious, but failed to make it look statistically like a normal GM win.
Nothing can be proven from one game, especially if it not maximally naive cheating.
To play the devil's advocate: if I used engine assistance against Carlsen, I would wreck him. And it would look, to others, as if Carlsen was playing "below his usual skill". Mistakes here. Blunders there. Getting worn down, move by move.
My moves, meanwhile, would look logical and effortless. Nothing special at all. Just methodical, precise, simplicity ...
Fair enough but from all the analysis I’ve seen it shows Carlsen made several objectively poor moves. Even running the png through Chess.coms analysis shows Carlsen playing with 88% accuracy vs 92% for Hans, so neither player played an impossibly great game of chess.
This is going to change the future of chess (posted yesterday)
If Carlsen is handcuffed from speaking more openly because of a cease and desist letter then why is he able to write that letter accusing and providing his reasons in the first place?
We have proof that Hans has studied the Romanishin variation before the game
Was it proved? All I heard was a claim by Niemann.
I was instinctively skeptical of Niemann's story about studying that variation the same morning but I can understand why he would want to say it given his perfect play until Carlsen slipped.
If Carlsen is handcuffed from speaking more openly because of a cease and desist letter then why is he able to write that letter accusing and providing his reasons in the first place?
Who says Carlsen got such a warning? He had said literally nothing until his letter today.
His letter today is (possibly deliberately) ambiguous, being interpretable as echoing chess.com pointing out that Niemann had lied about the amount of his cheating in online chess or as referring to Niemann cheating in OTB games.
Carlsen is a very smart guy and his judgement and prudence are both likely to be very good.
Elroch, Some here were suggesting a cease and desist letter was the reason.
We have proof that Hans has studied the Romanishin variation before the game
Was it proved? All I heard was a claim by Niemann.
I was instinctively skeptical of Niemann's story about studying that variation the same morning but I can understand why he would want to say it given his perfect play until Carlsen slipped.
Yes. This r/chess thread shows that Niemann had played the Romanishin back in 2018-2019, indicating that Niemann has expertise in this variation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/x76zlz/niemann_played_the_g3_nimzo_both_as_white_and/
The fact that Niemann was able to recount the Romanishin game played by Carlsen in 2019 strongly collaborates that he had studied the line before the game against him.
our opinions are going to fly from loving Hans to hating magnus et al to just thinking well if we love magnus and stand by him we what ? Now hate Hans ? For allegedly pulling a stunt or two (plus others if my memory serves me right connected to Hans) we should just let Hans play if he ever gets to again and see how the world will change to stop these allegations from repeating I E all in one body suites atop a skyscraper.....with non electrical game relay...by pigeon.....QED.....the worse thing now is to ban him outright....Viva the 2022 US championships. ..you cant blacklist without guilt....room 101.....assassination by pygmies.....etc
Elroch, Some here were suggesting a cease and desist letter was the reason.
The odd words about Magnus needing Niemann's permission support that.
Brings to mind the fact that Lance Armstrong used to use legal threats and legal action all the time if anyone suggested he was doping - even, for example, accurately stating evidence that supported the fact that he had doped.
That is not perfectly natural. I would bet my life savings that any given person cheated at something as a young child. If what you say was natural then we should assume everyone is cheating.
I was about to create a thread called "Thus spoke Carlsen" and then I saw this one . Thank you OP for saving me from making another worn-out reference.
Back to the topic, I'm glad Carlsen decided to speak at last. I still doubt he's right, but putting an end to the silence is the first step towards making this issue a bit reasonable. And I find particulary interesting what he said about the Sinquefield Cup game.
What makes you think Niemann wasn't cheating? There is no evidence that says Niemann has ever cheated OTB but he's still every suspicious. His rise from an IM to a 2700 GM in less than 2 years has never been done before. For reference, it took Carlsen about 3.5 years, Nakamura 6 years, and Giri 3 years. He's been suspected for cheating OTB for a while, even by super GMs like Nepomniachtchi, because of his sudden improvement and inconsistent performance in tournaments. He plays like a top 20 player in one tournament then a few weeks later he performs like an FM in another tournament.
I agree the fast rise is definitely suspicious, but I think it may be believable , although perhaps only for a future world champion. If we check how long he, Carlsen and Firouzja took to raise from roughly 2500 to 2700, we see that Carlsen took a bit more than two years and three quarters to do it, from January 2004 to October 2006. Firouzja took two years, from July 2017 to August 2019. In Niemann's case, it was only a year and three quarters, from Jan 2021 to 2022 October, but he didn't play much in 2020, so maybe (I know it's a big maybe) it could have taken him around two years under normal conditions, like Firouzja did.
I don't find the argument about inconsistency very convincing. Is he really way more inconsistent than other players? If that's the case, why couldn't that be because of an "unstable character"?
I admit I am a bit biased, as the way Carlsen has handled this made me sympathetic for Niemann. So, maybe I want to believe...but I expect something more consistent before I call him guilty. Some flashy statistics, please!
I was about to create a thread called "Thus spoke Carlsen" and then I saw this one . Thank you OP for saving me from making another worn-out reference.
Back to the topic, I'm glad Carlsen decided to speak at last. I still doubt he's right, but putting an end to the silence is the first step towards making this issue a bit reasonable. And I find particulary interesting what he said about the Sinquefield Cup game.
What makes you think Niemann wasn't cheating? There is no evidence that says Niemann has ever cheated OTB but he's still every suspicious. His rise from an IM to a 2700 GM in less than 2 years has never been done before. For reference, it took Carlsen about 3.5 years, Nakamura 6 years, and Giri 3 years. He's been suspected for cheating OTB for a while, even by super GMs like Nepomniachtchi, because of his sudden improvement and inconsistent performance in tournaments. He plays like a top 20 player in one tournament then a few weeks later he performs like an FM in another tournament.