PERFECT GAME

in a perfect game (perfect play from both sides) would a chess game be a draw or a win for white??

I don't believe it has actually been proven it will be a draw, but it seems likely.

This is something a friend of mine have debated from time to time.

I believe the answer to be yes but this cannot be proven without "solving" chess. That is, having every possible move, position, etc. in a database, much as how checkers was solved. Unfortunately, this will certainly not occur in our lifetime due to the very large numbers of possible games, positions, moves, etc. etc.

One must wonder, however, if having the first move would prove supreme assuming perfect play from both sides.

I played a game with Combat64 that I believe to have been a perfect game, only our kings remained on the board. Combat64 is a very good Chess player. I enjoyed the game. 8/19/2008 was when we started the game, 5 days per move.When you have time take a look at the game.

We don't know. Likely either a win for white or a draw.

My belief is that the first move advantage that white has is not a sufficient advantage to be able to guarantee a win.  Remember that you can still draw games (not including "blunders" by white that lead to stalemate or perpetual check) with a significant material imbalance (such as K+N vs K or K+B vs K) that far outweigh the half-tempo imbalance from the beginning of the game.

Not to be harsh, but among other things, drawing in a queen vs. knight endgame is unlikely to coincide with other players' definition of "perfect".

On the subject of win or draw, I tend to think the perfect game would be a draw.  If black could equalize against white's initiative with every single move, neither player would have an advantage on white's move.

There could be exceptions in an unbalanced opening like the Sicilian, but if those allowed a win for white, then playing the opening at all wouldn't be perfect play from black.

Ditto TheGrobe. The first move advantage isn't big enough for a win and perfect play by black won't let him expand on that (much, theoretically).

thanks for the posts!!

I think I have a possible answer to that, after an experimental test I made with the computer of chess.com. I chose another chess program and I faced them (pc-from-chess.com vs. pc-at-my-home). After more than 100 moves without a clear winner -and also due to my obligations- I stopped the test. In my opinion there was a slight advantage for the whites -say an extra pawn-, but in a general point of view it was not possible to decide a winner. So, in a perfect game, as chess programs are suppose to behave, I think whites will have slightly more advantage but the most likely outcome will be a draw.

 For those that wanted to see The Perfect Game: http://www.chess.com/echess/game.html?id=7181437

not quite

i think it would end in a repition draw, bc for the game to be perfect you wouldnt give up even postitional or tactical advantages mostlylikely leading to repition draw very early in the game.

this is kind of off the topic but in referance to post #4 by stats_man, has anyone ever calculated the number of possible moves, positions, variation, etc. in chess?

Here: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/how-many-different-chess-positions-are-there

And here: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/more-puzzles/number-of-possible-chess-configurations

And probably a number of others....

Even if black doesn't move it still takes white 4 move to checkmate black, so unless black makes a mistake white still remain only 1 move ahead which is enough to check mate.

Extending that line of logic, if white doesn't move it takes black 4 moves to checkmate white and we're even again.

I could put forth a similar case that the shortest helpmate for white occurs on move 3, while the shortest helpmate for black occurs on move 2 and use that to argue that black has the advantage, but that argument is just as flawed as yours.

The fact of the matter is that black has to move, and even if he didn't, not moving isn't perfect play so it's not really relevant to the question that was posed.

it's a win for black, actually.

I do not believe there is such thing as a perfect game. Even for computers it is not possible. Many different openings and tactics are used by various players and it all depends. A move cannot be considered a wrong move if one feels it gives a tactical advantage. That is the beauty of chess; it cannot be perfected.

There is a best move in any given situation -- the practicaly ability (or inability) to determine what it is is what you are referring to, but that's really not the question: Theoretically, if that best move were played every time for both sides, who would win?